Teutoberg Forest Video

"The Lost Legions Of Varus explores the flaws in Roman imperial policy, as well as the frailties of the human condition – factors both relevant in understanding the reasons behind the massacre in the Teutoberg forest."

 

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What do you think would've happened if the Romans had won the battle, and Augustus didn't give up Germania and settle for his 'natural extent of Rome'?

 

Fascinating video!

 

Excellent video, much better than the average archaeological TV video, combining archaeology, history and numismatics, especially the counter stamped Varus coin which I did not know existed. As for the answer to the question posed above, there is no question about it. If decisive means a long term impact, on a large population, and a large area, over a long time, few battles have been more decisive that that of the Teutoberg Forest. Much of European history, for some 2,000 years, has been the endemic conflict between Teuton and Gaul and, had Rome succeeded in bringing Romanitas to Germania, the difference between what might have been and what has been is incalculable. Among other matters, no Germanic invasion of Britannia circa 400-500 AD and just that alone boggles the mind today. And the German language and all that has been stored and transmitted through it? The German language would be as important today as the Gallic language of Celtic Gaul, a curiosity for linguists and nothing more. Only a handful of events in history have had such importance as the Battle of the Teutoberg Forest. Now for the coins part. Here are three coins associated with battles between Roman and German. The first is a Quinarius of about 97 BC celebrating the victory of Marius over the Cimbri and Teutones with Apollo on obverse and Victory crowing a trophy, Sear 213. The second is an As of Germanicus, mentioned in the video for having buried the Roman dead from the battle. He is on the obverse, Sear 1821. The third is an Siliqua of Valens, remembered for his own catastrophic defeat by the Germanic Goths at Adrianople in 378 AD. He never got to fulfill those 20 year vows on the reverse, Sear 4112.

 

Maximinus Thrax may have carried Roman arms to their greatest extent in northern Germany - which is evidenced by the Harzhorn battle site. However, the expedition was probably punitive and not for annexation of territory. Here are a couple of links, one of which references CoinTalk.

https://www.unrv.com/forum/topic/18631-rome’s-forgotten-battle-harzhorn/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_at_the_Harzhorn

 

Excellent history lesson that should be taught to all World History students.

 

Yes, an excellent piece of historical video, though the videographer failed to accurately depict his Roman troops in their actual marching order, with their weapons and armor slung, instead of worn for fighting. Later on, after the initial onset of the German tribes, the legions would march girded for combat, which would eventually contribute to their physical exhaustion in the endless undergrowth through which they were forced to march. At any rate, more details about the discovery of the several battlefields and recovery of artifacts are available from a very good back-issue of Military History (magazine). and an entire book written on the subject several years ago (neither of which I can locate at this moment, of course!); both informative and well worth the investment in time.

 

It was certainly an important battle, but I'm not sure that you can reasonably conclude that even if it hadn't taken place, or the Romans hadn't been annihilated in it, or Augustus hadn't changed Roman expansionist policy in Germania after the defeat, it would have been clear sailing thereafter for Rome in Germania. After all, another defeat could easily have occurred later on that would have had the same result. And there are a lot of giant steps (geographically and otherwise) between removing Roman defeat in one battle, and an ultimate outcome of Rome pacifying and Romanizing all of Germania, all the way to the Baltic and North Seas. Never mind removing the future pressure on the German tribes, from the Huns and others, that caused them to move towards the Empire in subsequent centuries.

But I acknowledge that "alternative history" is always interesting to speculate about. I've read and liked several novels, including those by Robert Harris ("Fatherland") and Len Deighton ("SS-GB"), based on the premise of the UK being defeated and occupied by the Nazis in World War II.

 

I did!

 

Great flick, @Roman Collector ! I believe the narrator was an actor in a King Arthur film where he played Merlin. His voice is very
reminiscent!

PUBLIUS QUINCTILIUS VARUS

AE OF ANTIOCHEIA, SYRIA

RPC 4252, SNG Cop. 92, 20.4mm, 8.03 grams, Dated year 27 = 5/4 B.C.E.

Obverse: Laureate head of Zeus to right

Reverse: Tyche of Antioch seated to right, holding palm branch; below, river-god Orontes swimming right, in right field, date ZK (year 27 = 5/4 B.C.E.)

This rare coin was struck during Varus' assignment as Governor of Syria from 7 - 4 B.C.E. Varus guarded the borders from Parthia and violently quelled unrest in Judaea and Samaria. Josephus records an incident wherein after the death of Herod., Varus occupied Jerusalem and crucified 2,000 Jews.

Later Varus was transfered to the Northern front, where he met disaster fighting the Germanic tribes in the Teutoburg forest. Three legions under his command, legions XVII, XVIII and XIX were completely annihilated. This caused emperor Augustus great grief and he was said to have cried out on occasion "Quintili Vare, legiones redde!" or "Quinctilius Varus, give me back my legions!"


GERMANICUS


RI Germanicus Caesar died 10 October 19 CE Copper As 27mm struck under Caligula- S-C RIC I 35 BMCRE I 49 Left

 

@Roman Collector, I'm going to have to watch this whole thing on YouTube, once the popcorn is made. The intro by itself is very impressive. Several notches above The History Channel, that's for sure!
...On what may be largely an anecdotal level, in the bigger picture, one thing strikes me about the European transition from broadly ancient to medieval times. The Germanic tribes, whether as mercenaries, clients, or conquerors, seem to have been very keen on assimilation. (Notably in contrast to the Celts, which probably contributed to the extent of their eventual cultural eradication.) Especially from the top, the Roman trappings of power, visual and verbal, were enthusiastically appropriated. And, of course, we shouldn't forget the ongoing Romanization of the left bank of the Rhine.
...There are cool markers of the process. For one, the Carolingians continued to render the Frankish name 'Louis /Ludwig' as 'HLVDOVVICVS,' retaining the Germanic initial "H" (cf. the Merovingian names beginning with "Chl-"), even as they proceeded with its Latinization --well, sort of.
On the other hand, the appropriation of Roman Imperial rhetoric by the Ottonian and Salian kings /emperors in Germany has every appearance of being as wholesale as it was intentional. After all, the word 'Kaiser' retains the original pronunciation of "Caesar,' even while mangling the spelling.
In aggregate, it's worth remembering that the Classical legacy was as central to the communal mindset of the Medieval world as it was to the Renaissance. ...Just differently!
...Speaking of this interval, it also contributed its own exquisite little monkey wrench to the geopolitics of the continent. The division in 840 of the Carolingian Empire into Francia, Lotharingia and Germany, west to east, left a vast swath down that same middle of the continent, to either side of the Rhine, in a state of long-term political limbo. ...Over much of this area, eventual German rule incorporated areas which were already largely Francophone, not to mention Flemish and other variations of so-called Low German, as late as the 15th century.
...Okay, time to shut up until I've seen the movie!

 

...Okay, just watched the whole thing. It was well done enough to make me sit through it --as I rarely find it possible to do, for that much video, all at once. But I have to second @DonnaML.
While it's good enough, for anything relating to history (especially this far back) in this medium, the initial thesis, that this one battle decided the course of Europe over a couple of millennia, is Pure Television. (.../Hyperbole. .../Expletive of choice.) To the producers' credit, they obviously did this intentionally, to get some eyeballs (...as they did). Great tv rhetoric; frankly Crappy history.
...But, given which, it had all the advantages that the medium gets. On a more appropriately impressionistic level, I couldn't help comparing Arminius' strategy, and commensurate statecraft, to that of two heroes among the First Nations of the eventual (...ostensibly, to this day) United States, who made similar efforts to unite their tribes against a common oppressor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_(Ottawa_leader)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecumseh
...Since it's February, this shortest month of the year when we're given official permission to celebrate Black History, I have to be reminded of the Maroons, in the hill country (aka 'the Cockpit') of Jamaica, who spent a good part of the 18th century fighting off the redcoats --one or more regiments at a time-- who were sent after them.
One lesson you can get from the study of history is reducible to this: Avoid communal narcissism. Along the lines of saying, 'well, My people were oppressed; that must mean that we were the Only Ones.'
Start with that scale of communal historical delusion, and you've already got the makings for the repitition of the same kind of garbage.
...'Wash. Rinse. Repeat.'

 

@DonnaML, one, I don't do a lot of fiction --unless it's masquerading as something else, and then I fling the book down-- but I needed the only book of Philip Roth's that I ever read, The Plot Aginst America (2004). ...Right, try reading that when it was new, and then watch what happens. Memorable, to say the least.

 

By AD 9, the Romans believed that the Germanic tribes were "pacified" and the archaeological finds at Waldgirmes show that they had started to build towns east of the Rhine. Hence, they were setting up a Roman province. The Varus battle changed all that. Town projects and the idea of a new province were abondoned. Indeed, the Roman feared that the Germanic tribes could overran the entire northern borders to Gaul.

Had the Cherusci not defeated the Romans, there would have been further battles, but I think the Varian defeat of AD 9 was a unique constellation, which the Germanic tribes further east could not have easily recreated. The Cherusci were led by a Roman officer who knew exactly how the Roman army could be defeated. This Roman officer had the trust of Varus, allowing him to set up an ambush. Realizing this, other tribes buried their mutual grudges and joined forces to beat the Romans.

In short, without the defeat of AD 9, I have little doubt that the Romans would have pushed the border of the Empire to the Elbe and perhaps the Oder River. The consequences of which are extremely large. The events of AD 9 determined the division of Europe in a Romance south and a Germanic north to this day. In a sense they laid the foundations for a centuries long Franco-German antagonism, which was only overcome with Germany's total defeat in 1945.

Best
Dirk

 

I agree with your analysis. it was of utmost significance to the development of Europe that what is now Germany was not brought into the empire and that decision was made because Arminius showed how difficult and dangerous such an attempt could be. Rome could no more occupy Germania after Arminius than Varus could give back those three legions to Augustus.

 

G

Great doco!

 

Excellent doc, well produced and informative. I find this battle fascinating, I only have one coin which fits in with the theme :

Mark Antony denarius of the 18th legion struck c32-31Bc , one of the legions wiped out at the battle a few years after the coin was minted,

 

Here is my Legio XVIII (not near as nice)

And Legio XVIII named:

 

The 18th was destroyed in 9AD, but it was the one formed by Octavian and not Marc Antony. Octavian copied many of the legion numbers already in use.