France; County of Tonnere. Anonymous, c. 12th c. Obv. +TORNODORI CASTI (Castle of Tonnere). Rev. Cross; stars to each side. (Boudeau 1726, Poey d’Avant 5855 /Pl. 135: 18; minor legend variant.) The reverse motif riffs on a vaguely contemporaneous issue of the neighboring county of Auxerre. Obv. Latin cross, the lower arm extending to the outer border. AVTS / IODER CI[vitas]; retrograde ‘C’ replacing the ‘D’. Rev. Cross; three pellets to each side. (Boudeau 1736, with another minor legend variant. ...Yes, they’re kind of endemic to the earlier phases of the series. ...No cause for alarm!) This is an earlier issue from Auxerre, c. later 10th -earlier 11th centuries. Already with the same blundering of the legend as the preceding, but later example. (Boudeau 1731; Dumas, Trésor de Fécamp pp. 169-71 /6678-6723 and Pl. XII.) During most of this interval, the counties of Tonnere and Auxerre were located in, and feudally subject to, the larger county of Nevers. From the 11th into the 13th centuries, the reigning count or countess of Nevers had direct administration over all three. Here’s a later issue of Auxerre, c. 1230, corresponding to the comital reign of Mahaut /Mathilde I, Countess of Nevers 1193 -1257. Obv. +ALTISIODOR. Rev. Cross; fleurs de lis and groupings of three pellets on each side. (Poey d’Avant pp. 233-4, no. 5897.) As a motif, the fleur de lis is distinctive of a small number of feudal issues from the early -mid 13th century. In this instance, it could be making reference to Mahaut’s immediate, paternal descent from a cadet branch of the royal Capetian dynasty. But along similarly speculative lines, they could be seen as symptomizing the broader expansion of royal administrative power over the same period. Not long after this, Mahaut’s granddaughter and heir was issuing deniers from Nevers itself, with the same motif. Mahaut II, Countess of Nevers 1257-1262. Obv. In field: “I;” two stars to left, fleur de lis to right. +M. COMITISSA. Rev. NIVERNIS CIVIT[AS]. (Boudeau 347, Poey d’Avant 2141.) Post anything corresponding to the 10th -13th -century CE. --Go ahead! I dare you! :<}
Very cool new coins! This feudy is a former @Bing coin FRANCE, FEUDAL, Valence, Bishops of Valence (1157-1276), Silver Denier, 0.71g., stylized angel facing, +VRBS VALENTIAI, rev., cross annulet in fourth quadrant, +S APOLLI NARS, (Boudeau 1021), fine And then I've this bad boy: Feudal coins AUVERGNE - BISHOPRIC OF LE PUY - ANONYMOUS Obole AR, 1200-1290 CE, Mint name / Town : Le Puy, 18 mm 1 h. 1,00 g. Rarity : R3 Obverse : + POIES, Croix aux bouts arrondis Reverse: .+. DELPVEI, Rosace à six feuilles Bd.374 (5 f.) - PA.2238 (49/3) Ex: Zeus
This was my latest purchase... Spain, Castile and León..Sancho IV 1284-1295 Cornado 0.81gr..Burgos mint. Obverse...SANCII REX...Crowned bust facing left..3 dots in the crown. Reverse...CASTELLE LEGIONIS...Three towered castle surmounted by a cross rising from the centre tower with B/* either side of cross..Arched door. Bautista-427
Thanks lots, @ancient coin hunter. Got to admit, hearing that from a confirmed (Really-) Ancients guy is its own special kind of validation!
Very cool, and absorbing knowledge, @+VGO.DVCKS . Great coins. I know nothing of the Denier coins from Medieval period. Nada. However, isn't a Denier more the Latinized term. Would this be the same / similar to an AR Penny / Pfennig of the Germanized areas? This seems contemporaneous and of similar size. England Edward I 1272-1307 AR Penny 19mm 1.3g Class 10c 1302-1310 Canterbury facing star - long cross 3 pellets quarters North 1040 Ex: @Mat
...Well, okay, it's like this. I finished the initial post in the wee hours of the morning, and ran into my usual technical issues with uploading files. The operant program (possibly with help from this desktop, now formally in the throes of electro-neural dementia --a compliment, since to this day, one requirement or dementia is a functioning brain) kept insisting I was over my limit for uploads. (Right, ostensibly ten files --is this starting to sound like a desperate cry for help?) Here's the map I would've liked to include. It doesn't help a lot with the wider geographic context (bordering the county of Champagne to north, the duchy of Burgunday to the southeast, the royal demesne to the northwest, and the county of Sancerre to the west). But it does give you an idea of the proximity of the main actors to eachother. (From Brian Timms' brilliant, if now somewhat fragmentary Early Blazon website: http://www.earlyblazon.com/) This will give you a better idea of the wider context, in medieval France. And here's the reverse of the prototypical, 10th-early 11th century denier of Auxerre.
Thank you. I thought "Denier" was a descendant of the Roman Denarius. I thought other areas after the Roman Empire used "Denier", Dinar, and other derivatives. Interesting. So "Denier" is specific to just that area in Gaul/France?
Many thanks, @Alegandron. And, to cut to the chase, Yes, Absolutely! During most of the whole medieval period, the Germanic penny (/pfennig, Scandinavian penning) was the direct equivalent of the Latin denarius /denier, (It.) denaro, (Sp.) dinero (Catalan) diner. As other people here have pointed out, the pre-decimal UK use of 'd.' as an abbreviation for 'pence' goes back to the same period. --While it would be easy to correlate this to the French influence from the Normans onward (...this is where you get the linguistic evolution from the Verrry Low-German Old English to Middle English, and the first wave of the Latinization of the language), I'm sure it ultimately goes back to Anglo-Saxon times, as a concession to the immediate international community. ...Oops, Oh, Right. The term 'denier' is now applied to most of the chronological and geographic range of medieval France, from the Carolingians onward. The denomination continues, in some form, through the last Bourbon monarchs of the 18th century. ...Granted, by that time, they're issuing multiple deniers in bronze. Kind of like the American cent and British penny over comparable intervals; 'how are the mighty fallen.' I'm clueless about how, in any number of Islamic series, the 'dinar' migrated from being a silver /billon denomination to a gold one. Can anyone help here?
I have no knowledge of Arabic and my knowledge of islamic history is very limited to the parts relevant about the contact between Europe/The Eastern Empire and Islam. That being said, I think that the contact with Roman (or romanized) culture is also what brought the 'dinar' to the Arabs and then in the muslim world more generally. Probably in a similar way in which 'dinero' came to mean money in general in Spanish, 'denaro' in Italian or 'argent' in French (or Occitan) -- note that Italian and Occitan have also 'soldi' and 'sous' (also terms with heavy and deep numismatic roots) as synonyms for 'money'. But this is not all -- Japanese has the general 'okane' as a noun for 'money' while the stem kanji 'kin' has as a primary meaning 'gold' and/or 'metal' in general. Back to the denarius/denier/denar/dinar, I think it's likely that the term became a colloquialism for 'money' rather early in Roman history and was kept in common speech (even after it became obsolete as a an actual physical coin at the end of the 3rd century) as monies of account. In fact the Vandal silver pieces were expressed in the 'denarius' denomination, so was the "siliqua" of the 6th century Eastern Empire probably. The silver coinages of the Merovingians were also 'denarii'. So this colloquialism was probably passed from culture to culture to be used where the language allowed for it to take root. It's an interesting instance of words going through history like living things, at least in a sort of darwinian sense anyway.
I'm liking this a lot, @seth77. With your characteristically seamless transition from documentary evidence to incisive, yet intuitive interpretation. ...Of Course (--head-bonk)! Money of account, and how denominations were genericized, as the likely etymological 'missing link'! ...Right, and equally anachronistic references to 'soldi' show up in European primary sources from around the 11th and 12th centuries. --Even better, in at least one case, regarding Roberto Guiscardo, obviously in reference to ...wait for it... Islamic dinars. Many Thanks! This lit up a few of the ol' synapses.
