Matte Proof Lincoln question

Hey guys, thanks for the compliements on my coins, I really appreciate it (by the way, I currently have 9 MPL's). As you can see, I really like toned coins. But I wanted to add my thoughts on MPL's. The mintage of MPL's is so amazingly low and I truly believe these coins are a "sleeper" and will continue to gain value.

I disagree with GDJMSP and I agree with Mikenoodle. What a coin is worth is not cut and dried. It is based on a number of factors - past sales, as well as the quality of a coin, mintage figures, AND what one is willing to pay. Pricing guides are only a starting point. And IMO, the pricing guides on MPL's are very behind on what nice MPL's actually sell for - just check out the past auction prices. But even those can be skewed if the coin was ugly or amazingly gorgeous. To me eye appeal is everything when buying a coin, and especially when buying one of these beauties. If you're going to spend big money and invest in an MPL, make sure the coin (and this goes for any coin IMO) has good eye appeal and no problems. I personally do not like spots, especially ones that are visible to the naked eye (like the one in your photo), and particularly not on proofs - most people want pristine proofs. However, even though you will be able to get a good deal on an MPL that has "issues" because they are hard to sell, doesn't mean you should buy it just because it's a "good deal."

So my advice is to look for an MPL that appeals to you, that you think is attractive, that makes you say "wow," and if you have to pay a little more than you expected, it will be worth it because you will be much more happy with an attractive coin, than one with problems - and most likely, even after you've had it for a few years, you won't feel the need to "upgrade" a good quality, attractive pristine coin.

 

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Wow, this thread got raised from the dead!:goofer: Thank you for all of the inputs. I never purchased the coin and havent really thought about it yet. I agree that it has some eye appeal issues, but it's not too bad. It just seemed to be priced a lot cheaper than I usually see, and I don't know how to price them.

 

Indeed! 2983 , the largest of the matte's, but still truely rare.

 

GDJMSP, in your scenario, you are trying to put such tight restrictions on coin sales that it is impractical and not real world. I don't think most coins are so alike that they can be put in a box or have such a specific price like you describe. I would say in your scenario, the one that sold for $3,000 was probably superior in some way or simply reached a larger market than the others, or had at least two people very interested in it. And I would certainly CONSIDER that price in figuring out what a similar coin should sell for, probably averaging that sale and others, depending on the quality of the similar coin. But my point is you can't put prices for coins in a box like you are trying to, again, there are just too many variables that determine values for coins.

 

Well said- I second that opinion.

 

I hadn't finished reading this post. Very interesting stuff. I have bought many coins from Charmy and they all have had way over the top eye appeal. She only buys top quality coins and literally has no junk in her inventory. I have sat at her table for hours and many of her coins are priced like the way Lehigh looks at it- so much over bid based on the eye appeal. The ones that have average eye appeal are priced accordingly. Some of my nicest coins I own are from her. At least the ones I enjoy looking at the most. I understand Doug's point as well. You have to use prices realized for a guage, and then ask yourself why you are collecting? Are you ok to potentially sit on the coin or lose money if you had to sell in a bind? I started selling some coins on ebay and lost money on most of them because of shipping fees/ebay fees etc. But the price realized was similar to what I paid. If a dealer charges 2x bid then it has to be a good looking coin.

 

:thumb:

This is especially true for copper coins and even more true for matte proofs! In looking at many many matte proofs, and there isn't that many of them to begin with, the are almost all unique. Given the wide variety of toning and the prevelance of spotting in this series, it's hard to find two that could be said to be equal.

Before settling on the 1909 PR65RB I posted earlier, I passed on a 1909 in the same grade that was offered at $1500, it was average color and had a small spot on it that distracted the eye appeal. When I saw the 1909 that I purchased, I had no trouble paying $3k for it as it just has screaming eye appeal and would not look out of place in a 66RB holder. Since I purchased it I've even been offered $3500 for it, but this one is a keeper for quite awhile

 

Doug,

Have you ever seen two higher-end coins on which "all things are equal"? Each coin should be judged on it's own. The TPGs grading of coins tends to lend itself to the idea that an MS-63 is an MS-63, but you have been around long enough to know better than that. Every coin is indeed different, some better than others, even within the same grade.

 

I agree with you. There will always be "aberrations" -- both high and low -- when it comes to pricing coins, and this is one of the dangerous sides to price guides because prices vary both up and down depending on quality, in my experience.

However, you're right, one price does not a price guide make.

 

Here's another thought, though....

The best collections are rarely/never put together for price guide numbers. Good coins almost always are bought and sold for prices above price guides, and you show me a collection that was purchased for below-guide prices, and chances are the collection is not a quality one.

That's not to say collecting on a budget at bought at price guide prices can't be a good one -- far from it -- but the best coins bring the highest prices far more often than not.

 

You'll get no argument from me on these points. I agree.

That's not what I'm saying at all. However, in the end a coin is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If I pay $3k for a counterfeit coin, then obviously the coin was worth $3k to me. Not saying that value is valid for another buyer, or a market price in general, but you can't really argue that the coin wasn't worth (to me, even in ignornace) what I paid for it...because I did pay for it.....Mike

 

GDJSMP, How can "paying too much for a coin" be considered too much when someone is willing to pay that price? YOU say it is too much based on your own standards, but what you don't get (and I mean no disrespect) is that not everyone has YOUR standards of what a coin is worth. If someone finds a coin that is "just what he or she is looking for," it has all the bells and whistles, eye appeal, luster, spot and mark free, superior strike, etc., whatever that collector is looking for, then who is to say whatever amount he/she pays is "too much"? Isn't finding that special coin, or desire to own a unique coin that appeals to that person, part of the equation of what a coin is worth?

Perhaps YOU (or someone with a similar thought process as you) think it was too much to pay since you or someone like you would never pay much over whatever pricing guide you're using for that coin or any other similar coin, but that doesn't actually mean in reality it was "too much" to pay for that coin. I am willing to bet that if a coin was worth over that pricing guide to that person, then it will be so to another person.

(p.s. I am not even going to respond to your "fool on Ebay" buying a counterfeit scenario, because IMHO it was a very silly analogy and cannot be comparably applied here - it's like comparing apples to oranges - except let me say that, whether a counterfeit was "obvious" is based on one's experience, and that "fool" probably bought the counterfeit unknowingly and unwittingly, and I don't think that necessarily makes him or her a fool.)

 

I agree with you Mike - this is exactly the same thing I'm saying.

 

I see both sides of the argument here. In my opinion this discussion somewhat displays the difference between a collector mentality and an investor mentality. I'm more of a collector, so I tend to side with Penny lady and Leadfoot. However, I do try to purchase coins that would be well-liked by others so if I had to resell, I would have a better chance of getting most of my money back.

 

Im in the Charmy corner here, and not because we are friends, but because she sits in the middle of that particular market. Probably at the top save for Brian Wagner or Andy and possibly Ira.

Top coins fetch top prices period. Thats from knowledgeble collectors and dealers who deal in high end material, not the dogs available at sheet.

There are many MPL's available at shows with zero eye appeal, have been messed with, and many downright overgraded, and yes in top tier slabs. Those coins are the sheet coins. Double and triple sheet coins are the norm with the high enders.

 

My message to the OP is that if you buy that coin make sure you have a return option. It could look great it hand or pretty bad.

GDJMSP: I dont get some of your comments. When you carry the admin title and you post some of the comments you do I hope you relalize it makes it hard for others to discuss there thoughts here. People dont like arguing with an admin, it puts them in a weird space. I am glad you stick to your guns on your thoughts but man, let the others discuss!!!


Yes, perhaps the coin was worth that much to them - but was it worth that much to anyone else ?

If at auction dont forget the underbidder if it is a true auction!

 

Very true. I probably won't purchase the coin. I had a fleeting interest in MPLs, but now my interests have turned elsewhere.

One thing I've learned about GD is that the vast majority of the time I see him as the latest poster on my thread; it's because he disagrees with me. He has been affectionately known as "scrooge", and we tease him for his ability to find something wrong with a seemingly perfect coin. All that said, I have come to deeply respect his opinion. I have probably learned more relevant coin information from him in the last year and a half on this forum than anyone else. Often it comes in the form of "tough love", but that's just how he is.