Here's a link I found out about die varieties of classic head quarter eagle coinage, which I want to eventually specialize in. http://www.harrybassfoundation.org/basscatalogs/BASSSALE2/b2-1-f.htm I guess the part I don't understand is the die's, if I get it right, each coin has 2 dies, an obverse and a reverse with a planchet in the middle correct? I learned about different die states a little a couple years ago when I had a coin friend, normally coins struck first with the die are more PL, while later die states are more 'satiny'? I really want to understand the differences of the die varieties based on this information shown in the link. For example, I think my quarter eagle classic head is in the second from the top on the list, I'm not sure because I don't understand exactly what the differences is between the first and second. They both seem small head variety... As far as I know, a die variety is when die's were hand made and each die made by that coin are slightly different, I assume each coin had multiple dies during the series lifetime ? Referring to the second example, it says: " Prooflike surfaces on obverse and reverse, save for the outer area of the field between the stars (or on the reverse the letters) and the dentils. The Small Head variety is instantly recognized, even at a distance, by the straight vertical line of hair curls at back of head. The Large Head type offered in the next few lots, has two distinct buns of hair at back of the head." First, is it saying that this die variety (in the part I highlighted bold) often has semi PL surfaces through the devices on the obverse and reverse? Because this describes mine exactly, which other people who hadn't seen the coin in hand mistakenly view it as a sign of cleaning. I don't really see the vertical line of hair between the 2nd and 3rd coins...on the second coin from the first, the hair is more vertical going down, and on the third one it is more horizontal? They both seem to have 2 dinstict buns of hair. Perhaps BECKOCA could speak to straighten me out?
In the drawing of the second, looking at the back of the head,the edge of the hair is straight but it is almost a straight vertical line where the curls then reflect forward and terminate. If you look at the third one at the same back of the head, there is an indentation about half way down that divides the hair into 2 ( buns). But the third one is a large head, so I suspect you might have meant 1st and 2nd? The first one, the edge of the back hair does line up, but the reflected curls do not terminate at the same place and so there is no straight line as in the 2nd . I hope I got that straight. Jim
::sigh:: I am so confused right now, I'm sorry. I don't see the difference Regarding the first and second one, in the second right to the left of where the hair ends, there is a straight line going vertical where the hair matches. on the first one the hair does not line up in this spot. Is this what you were talking about? Regarding the buns of hair, they look the same I don't see a difference I'm pretty sure how mine is the second one from the top, the most common variety. (Can BEKOCA confirm this?) It's hard to explain but there is a more immediate 'gap' where the hair starts from the top of the head, than the first variety. They look very similiar. The hair also looks more vertical. I put an arrow in the area: Please let me know if this is correct. 275 183 4Breen-6138 NoMottoSmallHead Variety (Not 274)
I am sorry, I confused you, re-reading my answer, I was vague. Yes, both (274) and the 2nd ( 275) have the straight hair at the very back of the head, and this is ( they say) the distinguishing visual between the small head ( 274, 275) and the large head ( 276,278,279) which has an indentation. That is what separates the hair into 2 buns for (#276-279) Large heads. Looking at the top 2 ( 274) and (275) I found the following The head of 1834 does look like #274 to me. But there is where my possible helps ends. I suspect #275 is the "head of 1835" variety, but I am not confident to say so. Maybe an "old gold" person will come along. I apologize if I have really fuzzed things up Ahh, checking before I post, I now see your photo. It looks like the 2nd one to me. Jim
Actually the "line" I was seeing that was different between the first and second was this green one which I think is like the second. I have confused you enough, I hope someone will extricate me out of this and give you real help. Jim
It's not your fault, I have always had difficulty learning things. It takes me awhile. Regarding the difference between small and large head, I do see the indentation of the hair curls at 2:30 on the large head. The small head has a small indentation too, but not in the same spot. Now regarding the differences between the 274 and 275, there seems to be more vertical hair and an indentation on the top of the hair(head) on 275. There is also a line of horizontal hair that goes vertical. Is this right? I think now I'm going to go look at ebay and heritage archives for the 2 different varieties between the date 1834 . (The differences between 274 and 275) Yikes, I hope I get this!
Question: Does anyone know if with the date 1834 most were sharply struck? I heard the strike is often inconsistent and not sharp on most dates..but I'm not sure if this is the case with the 1834. Mine has a pretty good strike though
Here's a picture of the type 1 classic head of 1834, 274. Hope this is right. http://cgi.ebay.com/1834-2-5-LIBERTY-CLASSIC-HEAD-SCARCE-GOLD-COIN_W0QQitemZ350210833447QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCoins_US_Individual?hash=item518a313c27&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1205|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50
Keven the sale description is a bit confusing. There were only two obv dies used in 1834. There is only one variety of the small head 1834. Breen describes two varieties both having the same obv and two different reverses but no one has been able to verify the second variety. So lots 274 and 275 are both the same die variety with 275 being an earlier die stage. The small head has the curls at the back of the head arranged so the back edge forms a straight vertical line. the head is also further from the stars, not the distance from the curl to star 7. The 4 is also distant from the bottom curl. The large head has the curls ar the back of the head showing an indentation so they are grouped into two distinct "buns". The hair is also much closer to star 7 and the 4 is very close to the bottom hair curl. There is only one obv die with the large head but it comes paired with three different reverse. These three reverse dies are described in lot 276. Lot 276 is the large head paired with rev B which has a very close AME and a perfectly formed M. Lot 277 is the large head die paired with the Rev A which has the AM very widely spaced. Lot 278 and 279 are both the large head die paired with rev C which once agian has a close AME, but the M was punched into the die using a broken punch and it looks like the second diagonal of the M is missing. The small head (lots 274 and 275) also has the AME closely spaced and a perfect M but it is not the same die as rev B. The rev used on the small head has a tongue in the eagles beak and Rev B as used with the large head does not. Kevin, I hope this clears things up. Desertgem in your quote where they are talking about the head of 1834 and the head of 1835 they are referring to the small and large head varieties. So the small head is the head of 1834 and the large head is the head of 1835.
Hi Conder, I guess the part that led my confusion in the article below is that for 1934 date,he said there were 2 varieties, head of 1934, and head of 1935, Since all references tended to show either one like the first or second for 1834, it looks like I mistook the die state difference for hub variety. So maybe I misinterpreted or they are incorrect ( although they have decent reputation). Glad you straightened it out. http://reviews.ebay.com/Classic-Head-Gold-1834-1839_W0QQugidZ10000000000105629 Jim
Conder, why does the hair look slightly different on the obverse of 274 and 275? You said they used the same obverse dies..but these look different on those 2 ones.
Just saw this thread, I have to run but will try to add some input tomorrow night when I have time to read through it all.
Different lighting angle used to shoot the two coins tends to emphasis different portions of the hair.
Shoot, I got stuck filling in for a hockey game. This thread has some potential and I'll fill in what I know this weekend although it looks like others may have done a great job with info.
Condor, I still wonder why Neil Berman and Silvano DiGenova of Superior Galleries who wrote the article I mentioned notes ( referring to 1834) "This date comes from two distinct dies made from two different hubs" ? Is it possible that some late 1834s were struck with a die from a hub with devices intended for 1835? Jim
Conder, the hair is distinctly different on the 1834 small head variety, it looks different (274 and 275)
Because the first was made with the small head which was only used in 1834 and the second die was made with the large head which was used for part of 1834 AND ALL OF 1835. So they were all made from two distinct obverse dies made from two different hubs (small head hub, and large head hub. And you could call the large head the head of 1835.) Remember these dies were made using a central design punch and the the letters were added by hand. The small head punch was only used in 1834 and the large head punch for 34, 35, 36 etc.
Everything Conder says seems dead on. My specialty is the Half Eagle version of this series and I have only begun to study the 1836 quarter eagles as that year has the most varieties and challenges. So sorry I can't really add anything to the 1834 questions as of yet.
