Androgynous ancients: Beautiful is beautiful. So what's changed in the last 2,500 years? My 1st Musa

More and more lately my favorite ancient coins are "artistic" or coins with eye appeal, over coins with major historical significance (though, I'm still a sucker for any and all things rhyming with Shmalexander the shmate).
Many of these beauties feature young, long haired, pouty lipped faces with contours that would make 1990's runway models jealous


How many times is the prettiest obverse in the room not Aphrodite nor Artemis... but Apollo!?
My latest Roman Republic (or is it imperatorial?)coin, despite being a fouree, fits (or should I say, breaks?) this mold.
1 Muse down. 8 to go:

Q. POMPONIUS MUSA. Fourrée denarius (56 BC). Rome.
Obv: Laureate head of Apollo right; sceptre to left.
Rev: Q POMPONI MVSA.
Melpomene standing left, wearing sword and holding club and mask.
Cf. Crawford 410/4 (for prototype).
Condition: Fine.
Weight: 2.95 g.
Diameter: 17 mm.

And who didn't think those lovely locks, with flowing flowers intertwined, of Dionysus weren't from some fair Goddess and not a god when you first saw them?

MOESIA. Kallatis. 3rd-2nd centuries BC. Tetrachalkon (Bronze, 21 mm, 7 g), Poly..., magistrate. Head of Dionysos right, wearing wreath of ivy; on neck, countermark: head of Artemis to right, with bow and quiver over her shoulder. Rev. ΠΟ/ΛY within wreath; above, KAΛΛA. AMNG I 221.

Sometimes it seems us moderns have confused the matter, or at least muddied the waters by having to have a name/category for everything and everyone, and due to our predetermined conceptions of sexuality.

Sex ed in Utah schools in the 80's was hilariously confusing (NEVER have Sex before marriage or you will simmer in Hades! But if you do then wear this and it'll be safe. Wait! What?), and just some 30 years later, incredibly misguided and out dated. Now times that passage of time by about a hundred and that's how far back we'd have to travel in time to ask someone to please define beauty and sexuality to us.
Please don't check my math, nerds:


For the Greeks sexuality was much more fluid and hard for our modern minds (at least mine) to wrap our heads around.
Our modern media:

(No, not that. That's ancient Medea)

tells us men should be rugged, dominant and not feminine. While women are supposed to be beautiful, docile and never masculine. Really feels like a regression.
For example, look at the "young, long haired, pouty lipped, face with contours that would make 1990's runway models jealous" on
Steven Tyler.


Mr. Arrowsmith himself has an utter look of self disgust at the top of the video when he realizes he has been ogling a GUY!?
But why? Societies predetermined conception of sexuality. Though, his reaction is considered tasteless now, again, it wasn't 30 years ago. You wonder, did Steven even realize how feminine he looks and dresses?
He doesn't look a lot different than...

Antiochos II
261-246 BCE Æ (18mm, 3.9g, 12h). Tralles. Laureate head of Apollo r. R/ Tripod; monogram to outer l., ? to r., anchor in exergue. SC 599; HGC 9, 253b. Green patina

Or:

LYDIA, Sardes
133 BC-AD 14. Æ.
Laureate head of Apollo right. / Club within laurel wreath; monogram above.
SNG Copenhagen 470-482. BMC 238
17 mm, 4,62 g

Sadly, during the couple passing millennia woman's societal expectations haven't changed that much. Same "beautiful, docile and never masculine" rule applies then as now... except in the curious case of Athena.
Though, sometimes curvaceous and voluptuous, Athena can be portrayed as very masculine.
"Because all my life I've learned to suffer in silence" - Athena
As her role in The Iliad and these coins show:

Mysia, Pergamon Æ19. Circa 133-27 BC. Helmeted head of Athena right; star on bowl of helmet / Owl standing facing, wings displayed, on palm branch; monogram below left wing, A below right. SNG France 1900-29 var. (controls); SNG Copenhagen 383-92 var. (same). 2.37g, 18mm, 2h.

Do you suppose Athena confused the ancient male Greeks near as much as Steven Tyler is in the music video?

Is Athena singing Queen???



I would love to see more androgynous ancients (any other gods, goddesses or people that I've missed?), any and all of Musa's muses, thoughts and insights into ancient Greek sexuality (with coins of course) and or anything else that bends your gens

 

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Excellent! I made it through this entire post & didn't not smile/laugh (yes, that's a double negative) several times! My wife asked "what's so funny"? I told her I just discovered "Dilbert" comics on YouTube & they're hilarious! (She doesn't know I know about CoinTalk; she thinks I'm on YouTube to learn how to collect coins )

 

Come now. Apollo and Dionysos/Bacchus were far prettier on their worst day than Steven Tyler ever was on his best. And his best days were a very long time ago, although I never found him the least bit appealing.

Bacchus:



Dionysos:



Apollo:



Apollo or Bonus Eventus:



Conversely, there are any number of Roman Republican coins on which Roma could be mistaken for a man because of her androgynous or masculine appearance, even apart from her helmet. The same is true of Virtus on this Republican coin, which I believe is one of only two on which she's depicted on the obverse:



This masculine/feminine interplay is true of Virtus in general in her reverse portrayals, given that despite being female she was the personification of quintessentially masculine "virtue," encompassing valor, etc. And certainly on the reverse of this coin Virtus has rather suggestively masculine attributes, counterbalanced by her bare right breast:



In fact, the bare right breast is not only a telltale signifier of Virtus's femaleness -- which might not be apparent otherwise -- but the same can be true of Roma herself, who is often portrayed in Roman art with one bare breast; in other words, like an Amazon. See the discussions of Roma and Virtus throughout this preview on Google Books of a book by Myles McDonnell entitled "Roman Manliness: Virtus and the Roman Republic": https://www.google.com/books/edition/Roman_Manliness/v2vefi2_ojYC?hl=en&gbpv=1 . See also the discussion of Virtus's numismatic iconography at https://www.forumancientcoins.com/moonmoth/reverse_virtus.html.

 

Yeah, but Donna, that can be said about many performers; but I heard that that is the reason they invented radio!

 

I aim to please!

Thanks for the kind words and I'm still smiling from the chuckle your story gave me
YouTube to learn coins hehe. Your CT wifey secret is safe with me

 

Ah, haven't heard from the Dalai Lama recently!

 

...@DonnaML, you're not going to be very happy with me, but along with mid-'70's Aerosmith, I have a weak spot for the Stones, especially the album, Exile on Main Street (1973). I like it how, after a decade of trying, the Stones (with help from Lots of session musicians) finally kind of 'got' how to play rhythm and blues. ...Generally, the sense I get is that most of the big-name rock musicians who survived the late '60's only got better over the next few years.

 

When I spoke about Steven Tyler's appeal, it had nothing whatsoever to do with his music. I'm talking appearance, strictly. The same would be true if I were to make a similar comment about Mick Jagger's appeal; the fact that I love some of the Stones' music would be irrelevant..

 

I get it. If he'd had a song about androgeny I'd have picked Brad in Legends of the Fall as my Apollo modern stand in:


I almost went with Annie Lennox but, again, the disappointment mentioned with not enough androgynous females left her pitch perfect voice out.
Thanks so much for sharing! Just a dazzling, if looks could kill, murderers row of ancients!
That Q Cassius looks much like the RR Alexander with horns of Ammon that I've lost out on in countless auctions.
Since I don't have one of those, nor your stunning example, here's a most beautiful young, rebelliously long haired, Alexander was known to have BLONDE locks (in Persia he must've been a sight to see):


Great call on Roma!


And your Hadrian reverse has me all:

 

Thank you for the valued clarification, @DonnaML! And it's great to see that so far, you're not slowing down with your posts very much!
...If there's one thing I need most about the track, "All Down the Line," it's Keith Richard's guitar playing right when Jagger is singing,
"Watch the men a-workin', workin', yeah...."
Richard's second note sounds like it's off by just a fraction of a second --but I have to hope it was intentional, because (...um, they kept it, and) it Works!!! Shades of similarly amazing time changes that James Brown used to be able to do with an entire horn band. Effectively changing the whole time signature, but just for one measure --and then it goes back to what you were anticipating. From here, that's Brilliance.

 

-

 

Looks like some of the usual technical issues, @LaCointessa. But I'm liking your new avatar!
...Ah, you edited it! ...Yeah, I'm happy with that level of nuance, interpreting the passage in Genesis.
But I'm a happy theistic evolutionist. Think about it: if one very primary function of humans, or mammals more generally, was propagation, why Wouldn't there be a spectrum? As an active Complement, rather than as an alternative, to a less ambiguous, eventual dividing line? ...On one intuitive level, it might actually help things along! (...This is another place where, on a vaguely philosophical level, I have much better luck with dialectic, as a means of processing this, than with logic in the more sanitized, modern sense.)
...And I'm thinking that you nailed it, like (Edit Alert: Whirr! Whirr!) @DonnaML says further down, inclined to think that the phrase, 'male and female he created them,' is resonantly true in both senses at the same time.

 

I can't blame that one on CT.....I posted it before I was ready! :-D

And thank you very much. I think this was my first CT avatar!

 

I've pointed that out to people myself! As well as the fact that since we're supposed to be made in God's image, God has both male and female attributes as well. I'll go no further!

 

...Well, okay, except, I will. The Psalms and Prophets are full of feminine --thank you, frequently maternal-- imagery describing how God relates to people.
...And at the point of how Jesus, in the Gospels, seamlessly echoes this, without blinking (being a very literate Jew), it's pretty emphatically time for me to go no further!!!

 

APOLLO


Roman Republic
Anon
AR Heavy Denarius - Didrachm
275-270 BCE
ROMANO Apollo Left-
Galloping Horse
Sear23



Roman Republic
234-231 BCE
AR Heavy Denarius - Didrachm
Apollo-
Horse prancing
Crawford 26-1 Sear 28



Kebren
AR Obol
Archaic hd Apollo Left -
Hd Ram in Incuse sq
5th C BCE
7.65mm 0.64g
SNG Ash 1086



Ionia Kolophon
AR Tetartemorion
530-520 BCE
Archaic Apollo
Incuse Punch
0.15g 4.5mm-
SNG Kayhan 343

 

Michael Harlan suggests the portraits on the obverses of the Musas series are of the Muses themselves (except for the Hercules reverse, which has a different depiction of Apollo), though the majority view is that they depict Apollo.

Apollo from 410/1 (Hercules reverse):


Apollo (or Euterpe) from 410/5:



ATB,
Aidan.

 

Constantinopolis and Roma are Athena-like in their androgyny:


Constantine I, AD 307-337.
Roman billon reduced centenionalis, 2.51 g, 17.1 mm, 6 h.
Trier, AD 330-331.
Obv: CONSTANTINOPOLIS, laureate, helmeted and mantled bust, left, holding scepter over shoulder.
Rev: Victory standing left on prow, holding scepter and shield; TRP• in exergue.
Refs: RIC vii, p. 215, 530; LRBC I 59; RCV 16444; Cohen 21.


Sons of Constantine I.
Roman billion reduced centenionalis, 1.67 g, 15.5 mm.
Heraclea, AD 337-340.
Obv: VRBS ROMA, helmeted bust of Roma, left.
Rev: GLORIA EXERCITVS, two soldiers holding one standard between them; SMHЄ in exergue.
Refs: RIC viii, p. 431, 28; LRBC I, 941; RCV 16529.

 

Nice coins @Ryro ! Some very artistic portraits.

I’d be careful not to read too much into cultural norms in the ancient world as a yardstick for modern progress or lack thereof. From all I’ve learned I think even the most old school moderns would likely find ancient attitudes on a number of subjects, including sexuality, extremely unpalatable. It is still interesting to learn about such things in context but to be fair you have to disconnect from the modern worldview.

As to androgynous coins who could possibly top the artistic portraits of Dionysius?! This coin makes for a fun juxtaposition with the ever man-tastic Hercules. I bet they would have got along quite well though!


Islands off Thrace
Thasos AR Tetradracm, struck ca. 140-110 BC
Dia.: 29 mm
Wt.: 16.58 g
Obv.: Wreathed head of Dionysus, right
Rev.: Hercules standing right holding club; ΣΩΤΗΡΟΣ in left field, ΗΡΑΚΛΕΟΥΣ in right field, ΘΑΣΙΟΝ in exergue. Μ to left of figure.
Ref.: Thasiennes 51
Ex arnoldoe Collection

These guys make for interesting coin roommates.

 

Great post, @Ryro, and cool Pomponius Musa fourrée. I have a Terpsichore in "off-Broadway" grade.

ROMAN REPUBLIC
AR Denarius. 3.65g, 18mm. Rome mint, 56 BC. Q. Pomponius Musa, moneyer. Pomponia 18; Sydenham 820; Crawford 410/7c. O: Laureate head of Apollo right; behind, tortoise. R: Terpsichore, Muse of Dancing and Choral Song, standing right holding square lyre in left hand and plectrum in right; behind Q·POMPONI and before, MVSA.

He had nothing on the guys from Poison...



... or Bon Jovus Eventus, for that matter...

ROMAN REPUBLIC
AR Denarius. 4.0g, 18mm. Rome mint, 57 BC. Crawford 405/5. O: Head of Bon Jovus Eventus right, A behind; [before, wind machine blowing left, off flan]. R: Winged guitar; M PLAETORI / CEST EX S C.