That's the thing - we don't know what we don't know until we know. And I suspect that some collectors are happier, simply not knowing what they don't know.
If I hear you right you just made the case for making these stickers in various sizes, just big enough to cover the various coins, themselves, for all this target-market for these stickers would care. Not that I'd necessarily disagree with that...
I have very limited experience with CAC coins, as I haven't searched them out per se. I will say this - I have never seen a doggie CAC coin. The few I own are very nice. Legend Numismatics is a major, major player and a part owner in CAC. VERY high end. I have briefly chatted with a Legend principal and was very impressed. They seem to be very, very concerned about coin doctoring. A key factor is perception. What does the money think about CAC ?
Now if CAC would stick their neck out a little and put a different colored sticker , for high for the grade , middle for the grade and low for the grade and keep their gold sticker for premium or upgradable coin they would gain a lot more credit , but as they are now at least they're another set of eyes saying the coin is at least average for the grade . Not worth a whole lot but better than sitting on a tack . rzage
They already decline to sticker coins that they consider to be of low quality for the assigned grade. And they also already award gold (instead of the regular green) stickers to coins that they consider to be under-graded, as opposed to "high for the grade"/above average quality. To expect them to make even more refined distinctions is probably unrealistic. And in fact, if they were to do so, I have no doubt that there would be critics who would complain about that.
One thing I wish they would though is have an online database. That way, you could look online to see if a coin failed to sticker...but they won't do that because maybe you will resubmit it without knowing.
How many of those low for the grade stickers do you think would remain on the slab once they were returned to their owners - and for how long ? 5 seconds - 10 ?
That is hope in vain, for the vast majority cannot. And while you may not be moron, most are when it comes to the subject of grading coins. Harsh words maybe, but true words.
1) I didn't see where anyone, including CAC, said collectors should buy coins they don't like. 2) Your hopes about anyone who collects being able to distinguish between nice MS65's and not so nice ones, are unrealistic - many, if not most collectors cannot do that. And ditto for a lot of dealers. As just one example, I taught the advanced grading class twice at the ANA summer seminar in Colorado Springs and saw how dozens of collectors (and some dealers) (mis)graded coins. Based on your comments, you would be amazed. That doesn't mean CAC or anyone else is making collectors out to be "incompetent morons" - you sound as if you have a chip on your shoulder. 4) Please provide some evidence that CAC is making, as you put it "millions of dollars"? You wont be able to, because they aren't. In most cases, their fees are $10/coin up to $10,000 in value and $20 per coin above that. And at the one show per year they have set up at, they have examined collectors' coins for free. They are not set up to, nor do they want to handle huge quantities of coins. Their business plan is not a recipe to make millions. If you don't like CAC and don't want to use their services, that's perfectly fine. Certainly it's not for everyone and it doesn't make sense for a large number of coins. But please, at least don't distort what others have said and stick to the facts when trying to make your points.
Harsh? I think you're being kind. Spend a little time on ebay and look at what people bid on! I'm not an expert by any means but some people have no clue about anything! There's some seller that paints purple rings around common Morgans and every other type of coin and sells them as toned examples. He's been doing this for months, if not years. Every type of coin has the exact same color and pattern and he has them all!! But yet it still doesn't dawn on people and there's still people bidding. I've seen people buy coins that look like somebody took a belt sander to them. We've seen many people bidding on absolutely atrocious fakes with no way to warn them. Bidding them up into the hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars. And people in this thread really believe the vast majority can grade anything, let alone differentiate within a grade??? You're fooling yourselves.
I don't understand how you see them as fraudulent. Fraud involves some kind of a deception to make a profit...yet there is no deception going on here. They are very open about what they are doing and the service they provide. I know that some people don't think their service is necessary and thus a waste of money, but it certainly isn't fraud.
Then instead of stickers they should brand them . I agree what with week strikes , different criteria for each date , it's sometimes impossible to tell a high 65 from a mid 65 for the average collector . rzage:whistle:
I wish they would do an online data base...but that hasn't happened yet (and it probably won't...it would prevent resubmitting).
As was stated many many times in the post, CAC is an opportunity to learn. I believe their business plan is well focussed, and a service of great need for junior as well as senior collectors. Socrates stated, true knowledge exists in knowing that one knows nothing.
You are a collector, and thus should not need anybody's approval but your own to know a coin that you like or dislike. The problem is that the "sight-unseen" market was developed for the investment market, not the collector market. Consider these quotes from Dennis Steinmetz's book Investing In Rare Coins: The vision of some decades ago was akin to this sight-unseen, internet-based market scheme we have today with the major auction houses and third party graders. The problem, however, is that this vision was intended for the investor and speculator, not necessarily for the collector. However, the same attitude is taken by quite a few people lumping the collector into all the speculation and investment mayhem we have today. A collector should know what they like, and like what they collect. This is the whole heart of the "buy the coin, not the slab" attitude. CAC simply adds to the whole mess by being used as a vehicle for some to spew even more of the "need" for further party assessments of what a collector should or shouldn't like. Leave CAC and the TPGs as a vehicle for investment. If you are collecting, then get serious about it and learn something. You already know what you like, and what you dislike. You do not need anybody to tell you that toning is damage to the coin's surface. If you like the pretty colors, then YOU like it and should collect it. If blast white tickles you pink, then stay away from toners. You like MS grade coins, then buy what you like at a price you are actually willing to pay to own the coin, slab or no slab. The collector market is not made by looking through trade papers and price guides and paying in accordance with a number printed to some label inside some plastic. The collector market is made by what you the collector are willing to pay for any given coin you desire to have in your collection. A major problem I have with CAC and the TPGs is that they tout themselves as serving the collector community, when in fact they are the vision of numismatists for investors, and give no real value to collectors as the collector receives no insight as to why the coin was graded a certain way, nor the problems with the coin, nor any comments regarding exceptional traits of the coin. Coin grading is subjective, there are different standards that are used, different techniques, and different opinions. One cannot claim a grade, especially in higher Mint State conditions, to be wrong, erred, or otherwise incorrect, unless such grade grossly misrepresents the standard being used by the grader, whether that grader is a "professional" or a collector or dealer. I will not give a Morgan a Fine grade no matter how exceptional the details are if the rims are not full and bold. And I will not call an uncirculated coin AU because of improper cleaning, ugly corrosion, or otherwise if the coin is in fact uncriculated. As a collector, I am more interested in the fact that the coin has good eye appeal to me to be in my collection. The price I pay for it will depend on certain criteria such as amount of wear, visible luster, evident misuse and damage, etc. I don't need anybody to tell me what I like or what to collect. As a collector, my interests are not in the ability to resell the piece. On the other hand, as an investor and speculator, my interests are totally and completely the profit that may be made on a short term turn around, as well as weighing the prospects for a long term hold and future payout of the investment. At this point, my opinion of grade does not even matter. What matters is what the prospective buyers feel about the coin, and what they are willing to pay for it. This is the only function the third party graders and CAC have, is in the investment market, where my opinion does not even matter.
When taken out of context, yes, you are correct. Most collectors, including myself, cannot grade coins within the constraints of say MS65 and MS66. Thats not what I was saying. I said that given 2 coins of the same grade, already graded mind you, one that CAC would sticker as excellent for the grade and another they wouldn't, how many of us then couldn't see the difference between a nice MS65 and a shoddy MS65 sitting side by side? If thats having a chip on my shoulder then so be it. We preach all day about people taking advantage of less knowledgeable collectors, and yet when someone does under a corporate guise we say nothing. Guy~
