I think this is the real key if you are buying the coin for your own personal collection. If you want the comfort of the TPG but feel that you are also capable of judging the coin...then don't worry about CAC. This is my line of thinking when I collect nicer coins. If I know the coin well, I can judge for myself if the coin is good for the grade or not...and thus save on the CAC premium. However, if you are trying to sell and you have a slabbed coin that is very nice for the grade and you want to get the absolute maximum value for it...there is the benefit of CAC. It's sort of that old "Two heads are better than one" saying. Buyers as a general population will pay more for the coin if it the grade has been "certified" by two separate and unrelated groups. Yes, PCGS and NGC are considered the best of the TPGs. They are the only two with excellent reputations for a long period of time. So, CAC only stickers their slabs.
Fair enough, but I want ask what I consider to be an even more important question. But before we get to that, let me ask another. Do either of you think that all coins graded by the same TPG, say MS64, are equal ? Now I think I know both of you well enough to say that you both will answer no to that question. That being said, then if all 64's are not equal, it stands to reason that not all 64's are worth the same amount either. This can of course be evidenced by checking the realized auction prices. So now to the important question, and this is to everybody, say that a given coin graded MS64, and one that just happens to have a CAC sticker on it, is being being offered for sale. And as it happens, the asking price just happens to be more than a similar coin, graded by the same TPG, of the same grade. Now if you admit that the two coins graded the same are not equal, that one of them is definitely nicer than the other, and that coin just happens to be the one with the CAC sticker - would you then be willing to pay more for the nicer coin ? And if you would, then what difference does it make if it has the CAC sticker on it ? You'd still pay more for it even if it didn't have the CAC sticker - wouldn't you ? My point is, you're not paying more for the CAC sticker. You're paying more for the nicer coin of the two.
No ya can't. You're gonna pay more for the nicer coins whether they have the CAC sticker on them or not.
But then again GD, what if the non-stickered coin is nicer. It just may never have been sent to CAC. In that case, the coin with no sticker has more value (and would likely be priced to reflect that). I do understand the value of CAC, but you still can't trust them in situations like this because they haven't looked at every graded coin. So, there is no way to know if a coin has been submitted to them or not. So, their opinion is a valid one...but at the end the day the buyer must decided wither the coin is nice for the grade and thus worth a premium (sticker or not).
If the coin is nicer, you will pay more...I know that. But, CAC stickers tend to bump the price anyway. Lets say you have two MS66 PCGS coins side by side. They are both "equal" not only in grade but quality (hypothetically). Both coins are equally good. One has a CAC sticker because it was submitted and the other doesn't because it never was. The CAC coin will probably be priced a little higher. That's just the way the market is. It shouldn't be, but it probably would be.
This was what I was trying to state. While I am not perfect, and I could be picking wrong - but I pick the one that meets my eye appeal. And yes if it was a really nice coin I would pay more CAC or none CAC coin. Something I have been wondering is how many tough keydate coins end up with CAC stickers? We all know the tpgs bump them, but what does CAC do? I am going to have to keep my eye out for them.
I just don't agree with people who think it's a scam. If they put their sticker on everything that was submitted, including C grade coins, they would be shooting themselves in the foot and would become worthless. Again, very simple. In a transaction involving a raw coin, you have your opinion vs. the seller's opinion of grade. Almost every time, for every coin, this will result in a disagreement of price. Maybe one side is VF, one side could go EF. Who's right? Occasionally, you end up with hard feelings and no sale over this. A slabbed, CAC coin has TWO, independent, third party grader's opinions, WHO ARE NOT INVOLVED AND HAVE NO BENEFIT FROM SUBSEQUENT SALES OF THE COIN!! While you are still allowed to have your own opinion and the seller can still have theirs, as in the first scenario. But it will remove most disagreement from a sale, the vast majority of the time, including giving confidence buying coins online. Somebody remind me again why this is bad???
So, in other words, collectors no longer need to like a coin personally, just so long as CAC likes it. I would hope that anyone who collects, unless they are blind, can tell the differences between nice MS65's and not so nice MS65's. They make us out to be complete and incompetent morons...and are making millions of dollars doing so. Guy~
Well I personally don't think it is a scam and I do not think it is bad. I just don't think they warrant SOME(not all) of the premiums I have seen them go for. I personally(while not perfect) think I can pick some none-cac coins that are just as nice as the green sticker coins. To me some of the CAC graded coins are just technically graded correctly and to me have 0 eye appeal(just my opinion). I am not saying that is bad or that they are wrong - just my opinion. Actually to me it would be interesting to have my 1879 to 1909 IHC's looked at by CAC - just to see what they say. To me I love them and don't need the CAC sticker - but it would be fun, but I will not spend the money.
This is a really good point that I hadn't thought about. Since the TPGs do tend to bump key dates...one would think that they would CAC sticker less often. But, that grade bump is market acceptable. So, the question is, does CAC sticker for technical grades or market acceptability for the slabbed grade?
My official " Wannabee Coin Dealer ( tm ) " experience with CAC has been this. Every coin I have bought or sold with the football has been a primo. What you will NOT get in a CAC coin is an overgraded doggy. You will NOT get a fake AT toner, you will NOT get a " just made it ". What you WILL get is a premium coin for the grade, or at least solid for the grade. The coin will have eye appeal, and will NOT have problems. I feel this service is VERY valuable for those who buy coins that really don't know coins ( if that makes sense ). Those investors with more money than experience. It would be easy to hit the bourse and buy up all the slacker doggy's in overgraded holders, then push them on a non coin expert buyer. This would be near impossible if the buyer stuck to CAC coins. In summation, I think that CAC serves a purpose in a certain area. Not all coin buyers are knowledgable collectors or studied numismatists. Many of us don't need a sticker to recognise a solid or PQ coin, but remember, there are many more of us that do.
I agree AJ. My CAC coins, are exactly just that...PRIMO! Now back to a question someone had of my previous post comment, in this light, buyers will be more closely examining the lower tier TPG's against the top level TPG"S for coins within in the same grade that do not have grade verified stickers, and I am suggesting they will pickup a more competitive market share. ( ICG, NCS and SEGS ) Just my opinion.
That's what you should do and will do if you have just a scintilla of sense (we're not asking much, here). As a matter of fact, what are the "Guess the grade" challenges here about but that very thing. Even though I'm sure it's cliche around here by now, you buy the coin, look at the coin, evaluate the coin, not the slab or the CAC bean (if I may borrow that from the OP, love it). In fact, look at the finished auctions on Heritage or wherever and invariably you'll see the same series coin, same grade, thousands of dollars apart. That tells me, serious buyers are buying coins, not slabs or stickers. I can't agree with what you said more, chief. :thumb:
CAC has been around for about a year and a half now and I haven't seen any indication of that, whatsoever.
I think we need more stickers to tell us whats obvious. With any luck in a couple of years we won't even be able to peer through the plastic to see if the 57 attached stickers are accurate in our opinion...not that our opinion matters. Guy~
I attend about 15 major shows per year and look at what's in dealer show cases and boxes. I also view approximately the same number of major coin auctions. I haven't seen or heard about any trends away from the top 2 (NGC and PCGS) since CAC was formed.
I'm not sure if I'm either "extremely sharp" or "highly advanced", but the CAC has detected problems that I missed. I also agree that most collectors, myself included, think of themselves as better at grading and spotting problems than they really are.
