Safe Deposit Boxes

What is the general concensis about using safe deposit boxes to store collections of rare gold and silver coins? I am concerned about rumors of draconian powers bestowed upon Homeland security and others to open boxes and sieze gold & silver without warrant. Is a safe a better option and if so, what brand, make model?

 

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Safe deposit boxes are very secure and probably safer in 99% of cases than a home safe. But some vaults tend to be a little harsh on silver coins, and they tend to tone faster.

I personally don't worry about confiscation because there really isn't any point to it. In the unlikely event it happens, you are probably better off complying with the law than risking prison unless you value your coins more than your life.

 

I'm curious if someone can help point out the details in the 1933 'Executive Order 6102' (Govt. gold seizure), which allowed collectors to hold on to precious collector gold (and silver?) coins instead of being forced to turn them in.

Do you think that if something similar happened again, that there would be exceptions made for collectors and collections held in SDBs or vaults outside ones home? The wikipedia link below only mentions the typical detail that you could own up to $100 (1933) dollars worth of gold. But doesn't explain how it affected collectors.

Also note the section at the link below that "no safe deposit boxes were forcibly searched under the order" in the 'False Rumors of Safe Deposit Boxes' section:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

 

SDB's are ok I guess, but makes it a hinderance when you want to view your coins. Maybe some banks are different, but at ours they charge you a fee every time someone has to open the vault so you can access your box. Needless to say, I closed mine out after a year and am taking my chances with a home safe. If I can't enjoy my coins when I want to, then whats the point in even having them?
Guy~

 

Home safes are easily broken into and or stolen whole. i.e. if it is in a house even bolted to the floor it just takes a crow bar to rip it off of the floor. I have seen video of a gun safe being broken into and it only takes a couple minutes to open.

The other bad part about safes is the fire retardant in the case of the safe has moisture, there is no moisture protection inside the safe and can cause unwanted black toning on silver. Unless they are vacuumed sealed in a moisture proof bag.

It is possible to get a TL-30 safe which is probably the most secure but it is also very expensive. If you get a safe it should be bolted to a cement surface where it is more difficult to pry the bolts.

Safety deposit boxes sometimes have moisture issues but because there is air movement and the temperature is somewhat controlled it is much less of an issue than a home safe.

 

You can worry all you want about things that could possibly happen. However, realistically, the chances of your having problems with a safety deposit box are far more remote than any alternatives, such as keeping your valuables in your home and/or hidden somewhere.

 

I believe your information is correct. I have heard and read, but cannot confirm because I wasn't there, that the 1933 executive order permitted people to keep $100, meaning five $20 gold coins dated 1933 or earlier, which essentially meant all of them. So in a household of five people, each family member could keep five. In total they would have 25 $20 gold coins, which was a tremendous amount of money in 1933. So the law wasn't really targeted at individuals, but at bank reserves and wealthy "hoarders." The other part is that the gold wasn't "confiscated." It was exchanged for paper money which could have been immediately exchanged into silver coins if the holder was worried about the soundness of the currency.

At least that's the way I heard it.

Nobody knows what would happen if they did it again, but since gold isn't money now and isn't used in foreign trade, there is no motive for confiscating it. If there was a strategic need, the most likely outcome is that the government would "force" the people to sell gold or silver to them at some predetermined market price.

 

SDB is the best protection you can have. I worry much more about thieves and natual disasters than I do about Gov confiscation. My coins are very well protected before they go in the boxes, i.e. Airtites, 2x2's, plastic bags and dessicant packs. I also recommend tossing in a nice BU cent with the dessicant pack. It will attract any minute amount of hydrogen sulfide that may work it's way in there.

If you can afford the monthly/yearly fee, it's well worth the piece of mind!

 

There is a fear factor here about storing your assets in a safety deposit box, SDB. When the run on the banks took place the federal government closed all the banks and people had to live with what they had on hand. I'm not sure if I remember correctly, but the when the banks re-opened many, many people found their money, jewels, and coins gone from their SDB's. This fear still lives on today. Do you have proof or legal documentation of what's in your SDB?

 

Do you have a reference? I have never heard of that happening.

 

Also, in my case, I live in a secure aptmt building. If someone was to break in and find my safe, he would have to carry some heavy duty tools to break it open. He would aslo have to be checked in by the guard.
My opinion is that he can't open it then and there good luck to him trying to carry it out of the building. Anyway, there are small decent priced safes that are water proof and heat proof that will protect vauables during a fire or flood.

 

Only by word of mouth from my parents and relatives. Banks were not trusted back then this I know. I'll have to go deep into my memory to relate any thing factual. I do know my dad had two houses foreclosed on him by the banks but that was because he couldn't put people out on the street when they couldn't pay rent. But the bank/s sure could and did.

 

If you go the home safe route have a dog and cameras. Crooks hate dogs and cameras.

 

I really don't worry about these paranoic ideas that a government agent will come and take your gold and silver. Most of these people own guns too and think the government will take those as well.

There's no evidence that anything like this would occur.

 

No, I have an attack cat that hides under the bed. He's very good at this and no one has ever tried to break in -----yet.

 

In my opinion, bank boxes are the best bet. Take good images and take the valuable coins to the box. It's not worth the risk of keeping them around the house.

I don't know of any small safes that are made with coins in mind.
They are built to hold moisture in the walls to keep papers safe is case of a fire. It would be wise to check the humidity levels in any safe before using it for coins.

Better quality gun safes are great for bulky low value stuff but it's still important to check and control the humidity. With these you also need to keep in mind that they were made for guns and not coins.
Stick your nose in a new one and take a smell. Carpet, glue, paint and wood shelves all out gas stuff that cant be good for coins.
You can get really nice gun safes that are somewhat fire proof but that brings you back to the humidity problem. They make a device called a rod that can help with this. It's actually a shall heater that goes in the bottom of the safe.

As you can see there is no clear answer to coin storage.

Someone posted this information years back on safes. Lots to think about.




Safe Ratings

Burglary Ratings

* B1 — Theft resistant (minimum security)
* B2 — Underwriters’ Laboratories Residential Security Container label
* B3 — Non-rated anti-theft (incorporates features of high security safes
without a UL rating)
* B4 — Underwriters’ Laboratories TL-15 label
* B5 — Underwriters’ Laboratories TL-30 label
* B6 — Underwriters’ Laboratories TL-30X6 or TRTL-30 label

Fire Ratings

* FR — Fire resistant unrated insulated safe
* 1/2 hr — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 30 minutes with outside temperature of 1550 degrees.
* 1 hr — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 1 hour with outside temperature of 1700 degrees.
* 1 hr+ — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 1 hour with an outside temperature of 1700 degrees, plus survived drop test from 30 feet.
* 2 hr — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 2 hours with an outside temperature of 1850 degrees.
* 2 hr+ — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 2 hours with outside temperature of 1850 degrees, plus survived drop test onto rubble from 30 feet

UL Underwriters' Laboratories (UL) - UL is a non-profit, non-bias agency that tests and rates the safety and performance of consumer products. Safes that have earned specific UL ratings will carry a UL label which designates the product's security and fire-protection ratings.

* Net Working Time - This is the UL term for testing time which is spent trying to break into a safe using tools such as diamond grinding wheels, high-speed drills with pressure applying devices, or common hand tools such as hammers, chisels, saws, and carbide-tip drills. If a safe has been rated with a 30-minute net working time, (TL30), the rating certifies that the safe successfully withstood a full 30 minutes of attack time with a range of tools.
* Theft resistant - This rating means the safe provides a combination lock and minimal theft protection.
* Residential Security Container rating (RSC) - This UL rating is based on testing conducted for a net working time of five minutes, on all sides, with a range of tools.
* TL-15 rating - The TL-15 rating means the safe has been tested for a net working time of 15 minutes using high speed drills, saws and other sophisticated penetrating equipment.
* TL-30 rating - A product carrying the TL-30 security label has been tested for a net working time of 30 minutes with the same types of tools mentioned above.
* TL-30 x 6 - The TL-30 (30-minute) test is conducted on all six (6) sides of the safe.
* TRTL-30 - The TRTL rating designates a safe which successfully resisted 30 minutes of net working time with a torch and a range of tools which might include high speed drills and saws with carbide bits, pry bars, and other impact devices.

Fire Ratings

* Impact test - The UL impact test calls for the safe to be heated to 1550 degrees for 30 minutes (1638 degrees for a 2-hour fire rated safe) then dropped onto concrete rubble from a height of 30 feet. The safe is then turned upside down and reheated for another 30 minutes (45 minutes for a 2-hour fire rated safe). During this process, it must maintain its integrity and protect all contents in order to pass the UL impact test.
* Explosion hazard test - All UL fire-rated safes must undergo this test, during which the unit is inserted into a pre-heated 2000 degree oven. If the safe is not constructed properly, the rapid heating will likely cause an explosion.
* FR - Fire resistant, unrated insulated safe - This product is awaiting UL approval.
* Class 350 1/2-hour fire rating - During this test, the safe is heated for one-half hour to reach an exterior temperature of 1550 degrees. Because paper will begin to char at approximately 400 degrees, the unit being tested must maintain an interior temperature of less than 350 degrees during heat-up and cool-down testing in order to earn its rating.
* Class 350 1-hour fire rating - To earn this rating, the safe is heated for one hour to reach an exterior temperature of 1550 degrees, then put through the cool-down test. During this time the safe must maintain an interior temperature of less than 350 degrees.
* Cool-down test - This procedure is a key part of UL's fire testing procedures. After a one- or two-hour fire rating test, the safe is left in the oven for cool-down time with the heat turned off. Because of the intensive heat of one- and two-hour tests, the temperature inside the safe will continue to rise for up to one hour after the oven is turned off. To pass UL testing, the safe's interior temperature may not exceed 350 degrees at any time during heat-up or cool-down procedures.
* Class 350 1-hour fire & impact label - The safe has passed both UL impact testing and Class 350 1-hour fire testing (see above).
* Class 350 2-hour fire rating - The safe is heated for two hours to reach an exterior temperature of 1550 degrees and must maintain an interior temperature of less than 350 degrees to earn this rating. Class 350 2-hour rating and impact label - The safe has passed both UL impact testing and Class 350 2-hour fire testing (see above).



1. Test attack against the door and front face:
1. Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TL-15
2. Tool-Resistant Safe - Deposit Safe
3. Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TL-30
4. Torch- and Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TRTL-30

2. Test attack against the door and body:
1. Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TL-15X6
2. Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TL-30X6
3. Torch- and Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TRTL-15X6
4. Torch- and Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TRTL-30X6
5. Torch- and Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TRTL-60X6
6. Torch-, Explosive-, and Tool-Resistant Safe - Class TXTL-60X6


There was an news article recently in CoinWorld about a burglary and how a collector/dealer’s safe was “smashed”. The manufacturer of the safe was listed and I was not at all surprised that the thieves demolished the safe. The manufacturer given is a major supplier of gun safes, not security safes.

Gun safes are usually made with a body of SHEET metal (steel), 12 gauge, 14 gauge, etc. and a steel plate (usually 1/4 in or less) for the door. Security safes employ steel PLATE, ¼”, ½”, 1” or greater and often have additional composite material to provide defense against various attacks (drill, torch, peel, etc). Security safes are rated on a letter scale, B, C, D, ... with B being a general catch all for 1/4” body and 1/2” steel door. There is also an Underwriter’s Laboratory rating (UL) such ad TL-15, TL30, and so on. The “15”, “30” , etc. on are measures of a the MINIMUM time it takes a professional to break in, the UL personnel that conduct the tests are pros.

Gun safes usually look pretty and have lots of thick locking bolts that give a false sense of security. Steel sheet metal is easy to break into, the local kid with an axe, crowbar and other tools can get in in no time. That thick fire resistant material between the sheet metal is just that, thick material to provide fire protection, NOT buglary protection.

One half inch or more of hardened steel with a drill resistance hardplate protecting the lock, glass or other relocking devices, drill resistant pellets and fibers between the lawyers of PLATE, and so on will discourage all but the most professional burglars. Time is the key to a good safe, not lots of locking bars.

The best jewelry safes may have a industrial diamond impregnated hardplate, slabs of copper to thwart torch attacks, multiple randomly placed relockers, and even layers (safe within a safe).

I would never store coins in a gunsafe and never buy one of those nice looking safes for sale at coin shows, A fairly “safe” safe is going to cost about $1000 for a good TL-15 safe (500 lbs or more).

Safest place for coins – a safe deposit box in one of those 50 year old bank vault safes that were build to withstand a nuclear attack.


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Dave (PA)

 

I have a really cool security system. My safe is next to the refrigerator.
Anything thats between the frig. and my teenage kid is dead meat.:goof:

 

I think this is another urban legend. It didn't happen.

 

I know. That's why I asked.

 

No, just the last several thousand years of history and human nature would prove that governments can't be trusted. But, since it's been 'relatively' ok here for a couple hundred years, the U.S. will be immune from that sort of thing for eternity. Sure.
Our politicians are so trustworthy with our tax money. I think we should just store all of our valuables at their own personal homes.