AR Siglos with lots of testcuts and countermarks

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Andres2, Jan 31, 2021.

  1. Andres2

    Andres2 Well-Known Member

    Just bought this Persian Siglos , I think all these testcuts and countermarks add
    too the history of the coin.

    Persia Sigloi (5).JPG

    Please show your persian Sigloi , thanks
     
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  3. svessien

    svessien Senior Member

    8485D485-147C-4CED-B19C-5A41D3E1D4C2.jpeg

    Mine is AU58, with a couple of bagmarks.

    I have it as:

    Achaemenid Empire, time of Artaxerxes I to Artaxerxerxes II (Circa 450-375 BC). Sardeis, AR Siglos
    Obverse: Persian king in kneeling-running stance right, holding spear and bow, quiver over shoulder.
    Reverse: Rectangular incuse punch.
    Reference: Carradice Type IIIb.
    Diameter: 16mm Weight: 5.38g
     
  4. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    Coingrats! I love these coins with as many cuts, CMs and or ancient graffiti as they can hold:jimlad:
    Pretty sure this was also savoca:
    20190326_131017_2290A057-16DC-415B-A500-F568E99434F7-406-000000A00EC8030D.png
     
  5. Parthicus

    Parthicus Well-Known Member

    Yes, the merchant/banker/whatever countermarks definitely add to the appeal of these pieces:
    Achaemenid punchmarked.jpg
    The one at the top looks like a nice Philly soft pretzel.
     
  6. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    I REALLY like bankers' marks, @Andres2 . Gives a lot of history...

    Some of have them, so do not.

    510-486 BCE - 1/32nd Siglos
    upload_2021-1-31_17-47-46.png
    Persia Achaemenid Empire Darius I 510-486 BCE AR 0.11g 5mm 1/32nd Siglos Persian hero-king in running incuse Klein 758 Rare


    485-420 BCE - 1 Siglos
    upload_2021-1-31_17-57-42.png
    Persia Achaemenid Type III spear over shoulder Darius I to Xerxes II Ca 485-420 BCE AR 1 Siglos Bankers Marks Incuse rev


    455-420 BCE - QUARTER-Siglos
    upload_2021-1-31_17-53-22.png
    Persia Achaemenid Type IV dagger quiver running Darius I to Xerxes II 455-420 BCE AR QUARTER-Siglos 1.35g 8mm Incuse rev


    420-375 BCE - 1 Siglos
    upload_2021-1-31_17-46-45.png
    Achaemenid Xerxes II to Artaxerxes II 420-375 BC AR 1 Siglos 16 mm 5.14 g Persian king running spear bow - incuse Carradice Type IIIb C pl XIV 42) Sunrise 25


    375-336 BCE - 1 Siglos
    upload_2021-1-31_17-51-1.png
    Persia Achaemenid Type IV Artaxerxes II to Darios III 375-336 BCE AR 1 Siglos 15.2mm 5.45g running daggar bow incuse BMC 172ff rev
     
    Kavax, Orielensis, +VGO.DVCKS and 9 others like this.
  7. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    This is my best example.

    ACHAEMENID Kingdom AR Siglos. Darios I to Xerxes II. Ca 485-420 BC.
    5.5 g - 15.5 mm

    [​IMG]
     
  8. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    Your 420-375 BCE - 1 Siglos has really nice centering and detail - nice coin!
     
    Alegandron likes this.
  9. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

  10. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    Thank you.
     
  11. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    No bankers mark on mine. Even the back is smooth.

    [​IMG]
    Darius II - Artaxerxes II, (420 - 375 B.C.)
    Persian Empire, Lydia, Anatolia
    AR Siglos
    O: Kneeling-running figure of the Great King right, bearded, crowned, dagger in right hand, bow in left hand, waist indicated, pellets on sleeves.
    R: Oblong incuse.
    Sardes (Sart, Turkey) mint
    14mm
    5.2g
    Carradice Type IV (middle) B, pl. XIV, 43; SNG Kayhan 1033; SGCV II 4683
     
  12. Ignoramus Maximus

    Ignoramus Maximus Nomen non est omen.

    Congratulations with your siglos! It certainly looks as if yours has had its fair share of travelling and adventures.

    I love a good, well-travelled siglos with countermarks: I like to think of them as visa of ancient globetrotters. And by the looks of it, some of these sigloi travelled a lot.

    I like this one: the countermarks respectfully placed around the face of Great King: Achaemenid siglos countermark.png
    9003.171.56_1.jpg
    Others happily stamped the Great King into oblivion:):
    siglos.png

    And some more:
    Achaemenid Siglos ser.4. Countermarked.jpg Countermarked siglos. 5,41 gr. 15 mm..jpg
    Given the number and frequency of countermarks on sigloi (and assuming that at least a part of them were made as a result of travelling) and, given the fact that sigloi-hoards are almost exclusively found within the ancient borders of the Empire, some argue that it is not likely that these sigloi were meant as nation-wide coinage, but were a continuation of the original Lydian coinage and were meant for local use. How else to explain the enourmous number of countermarks?
    I'm no expert on Achaemenid coinage and history, but I thought it was a pretty strong argument. Think of it what you want.
    Either way I think they're great coins.
     
  13. Nemo

    Nemo Well-Known Member

    I have too many of these, but here's one of my favorites.

    Siglos_king_dagger_bow.jpg
     
  14. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    And I thought mine had a lot of marks!
    g71710fd0590.jpg
     
  15. jb_depew

    jb_depew Well-Known Member

    It's fun to see so many countermarked examples -- here's mine:

    [​IMG]

    Achaemenid Kingdom AR Siglos
    Circa 485-420 BC
    Xerxes I to Darius II
    Obverse: Crowned figure, bearded, running right, with quiver at shoulder, holding transverse spear and bow.
    Reverse: Incuse punch
    References: Carradice Type IIIb (pl. XII); BMC Arabia pl. XXV, 17
    15mm, 5.40g
     
  16. Broucheion

    Broucheion Well-Known Member

    upload_2021-2-1_1-29-28.png

    Obverse: Banker's marks: "V", rectangle, triangle; Countermarks: three-lobed swirl in circle (inverse of Hill #23) and Athenian (?) owl facing right towards shield in circular incuse.
    Reverse: Incuse banker's marks: circle (Hill #3), >-< (similar to Hill #169) and triskeles-like circle with 3 "C" shapes extending from center. Rim: circle (O) banker's mark at 6:30 position.

    Attribution based on "Imperial Persian Great King Sigloi" from: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=siglos [1-Feb-2021]

    - Broucheion
     
  17. Terence Cheesman

    Terence Cheesman Well-Known Member

    I have only the one siglos. I managed to purchase this one back in 1991 Persian Empire Ar Siglos Sardies mint 485-429 BC. Obv Great king in running kneeling position right holding spear and bow. Rv Oblong punch Carridice III b early Rosen 671 5.34 grms 15 mm Photo by W. Hansen persia1.jpeg I find these guys rather difficult to purchase so I only have the one. They are a very interest though somewhat retro looking coinage.
     
  18. PlanoSteve

    PlanoSteve Well-Known Member

    Yes, doesn't it lend an endearing quality to these coins? :happy:;) Not to mention, I imagine the competition for these is greatly reduced because "purists" would consider it "defaced", & only pursue "perfect" specimens.

    Well, put your minds eye back, say 2,440 years ago, & say a camel merchant was about to sell a herd (I think that's what they call a bunch of camels :D). If he were shrewd, &/or already burned by fake coins (assuming he even knew of fakes), wouldn't it be prudent to make test cuts to see if perhaps fake coins had fake cuts to fake like it had already been tested, & to fake the uninitiated into thinking the coin was OK?

    Same with bankers marks - just because there are 1 or 2 marks doesn't mean it still couldn't be fake; I mean, the fakers, wouldn't they fake cuts too?...it makes sense.

    I suppose that back then, "bankers" considered the veracity of their customers like we consider the veracity of the "dealers" we do business with (although I doubt any of us now do test cuts. I guess our version would be a slab, but we can remove those! :smuggrin:)
     
    Ignoramus Maximus and +VGO.DVCKS like this.
  19. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    Thank you, @PlanoSteve. Especially where coins are concerned, the socio-economic history is integral to ...the whole history. Why I'm always a little disappointed by a late Anglo-Saxon or early Salian penny (/denar /proto-pfennig) that doesn't have peck marks from the late Viking Age.
     
    PlanoSteve likes this.
  20. Ignoramus Maximus

    Ignoramus Maximus Nomen non est omen.

    Hi, @PlanoSteve :)

    I get your point.
    But isn't there a big difference between test-cuts and banker's marks on the one hand and countermarks on the other? Anyone can jab a coin. Countermarks, as I understand, were an official seal of approval and authority, not the random mark of an assayer in the corner of the marketplace. They were used for a number of reasons, approval as valid currency in a region other than where the coin was issued among them. (there were many other reasons as well, I realize).
    The author of the article I mentioned took the view that many of the countermarks were a sign of approval as currency in a region other than where they were struck. This argument, along with others, he used to cast doubt on the prevailing view that sigloi were an empire-wide Achaemenid currency (or even of the western part of it.

    I wish I could find the article again. I thought it made for interesting reading. Serves me right for not bookmarking it...:(

    Either way, they're great coins.

    This next one has a cornucopia of banker's marks; someone, somewhere had some serious doubts about it... 000001111.jpg
     
  21. Orielensis

    Orielensis Well-Known Member

    Splendid coins, everyone!

    My only siglos without heavy test cuts and banker's marks (the third picture) is a fourrée, albeit a very attractive one:
    Orient, Antike – Achämeniden, Siglos, Carradice IIIB.png
    Xerxes I – Artaxerxes II, "Achaemenid Empire" (probably Lydian regional issue), ca. 485–375 BC. Obv: Great King kneeling left, holding transverse spear and bow, numerous banker's marks. Rev: irregular punch. 15mm, 5.43g. Ref: Carradice 1987, type III B.

    Orient, Antike – Achämeniden, Siglos, Carradice IV B.png
    Darius II – Artaxerxes II, "Achaemenid Empire" (probably Lydian regional issue), siglos, ca. 420–375 BC. Obv: Great King kneeling r., holding dagger and bow. Rev: oblong punch, test punches. 19mm, 5.22g. Ref: Carradice 1987, type IV B. Ex Ken Dorney.

    Orient, Antike – Achämeniden, Siglos, Carradice IV C (neues Foto).png
    Artaxerxes II – Darius III, "Achaemenid Empire" (probably Lydian regional issue), fourrée siglos, ca. 375–336 BC. Obv: Great King kneeling left, holding dagger and bow, three pellets on chest. Rev: irregular punch. 14.4mm, 4.92g. Ref: Carradice 1987, type IV C (prototype).
     
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