The ~ 600:1 Ratio here at CT

Yes, but I think this ratio can stretch further than cointalk..The collecting community as a whole, I'd be willing to bet my money that there are more coin collectors, than paper money collectors
And yes, I have to agree, a lot of members here, post once or twice, and bye bye.
It would be nice to have all these members come every once in a while, but we got a pretty good crew that comes along all the time, so I'm not complaining
Ratio might be a little off, for cointalk, but maybe not the whole collecting community
It would be fun to go to all of the coin forums out there, and tally up the votes and see what we can get
Maybe go to an auction, and see who is there more of, paper money or coin collectors, take those results, and make a ratio of our own
This would be a neat experiment to conduct

 

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Well, as many of you folks here know I am Bi and proud of it! I collect PM and coins. A LOT of my paper has come out of circulation and face value and, in this regard, it can get expensive in a hurry.
Saving a wheat cent from change doesn't hurt nearly as much as saving a $100 star note. No offense to anyone but everytime I read "I save every star note" I chuckle to myself. Back in my truck stop days I would frequently see over $100 face in stars in an eight hour shift so I learned fast. Still, I have well over $1000 face in star notes pulled at face value.

I also think a big reason is upbringing and conceptions. I see this at work every day. People come in to see what their coins are worth. Often it was left by a parent or grandparent. Then you might here "I have some old dollar bills too".
Why is this? Perhaps because coins have been around a lot longer than paper money?

Unlike many most of my collection IS small sized U.S. material. Why, as a life long coin collector, did I ever even start with paper money? Well, it was the "collector" in me. I realized I was probably overlooking a lot of scarce material because I had NO knowledge. I don't like that feeling.
The more I learned the more I became hooked. I was almost totally paper for a few years then started to miss my coins. The fact that I do both is a big reason I now work in a shop believe me.

Let's face it folks as collectors we're all a bit "different". Some of us worse than others. I'm a perfect example. I have one of the largest Fort Worth 295 engraving error collections known. About 2500 one dollar notes and the vast majority picked up at face.
Know what? MOST paper money collectors don't even know what they are.
Cripes! I'll complain that I'm broke and there sits $2500. $2500 that I'd rather see a collector have than the public.

So my point is paper money people can be like this. Just a different set of variables once one learns more. No different than an obsessed coin collector actually.

The paper money numbers will grow as more people learn and pass stuff along. You're a perfect example RickieB.
You are creating a "monster" in AJ. Cool little monster you have there my friend.

clembo

 

I pretty much knew that this remark may very well come up so let me explain the 600:1 to you a little better. At one time or another over 18,800people who signed up to this site displayed an interest in coins and paper money, to me that means they were active at that timepoint. Wether they remain active or not, is not the question, that is the total member count on this site thus far.
I am not trying to dispute any real number count, but if you look at statistics the number is well supported.
Now wether or not we choose to collect certain items is purely a personal choice. If you were to break it down into demographic groups of questions ...well there would be many diverse catagories to scan through!

What I am trying to point out is that Paper Money Collecting is realitively new, compared to coin collecting which is deeply rooted into the history of this and most every other Country! So why do we have small numbers of Paper Money Collectors is the real question here?

If you were to have asked me 5 years ago if I would have ever considered collecting Paper Money, I would have replied, no way! Nothing beats gold, silver or platinum in my book!

But what I see in Paper Money is not a real/hard asset like the metals, but more of an ART form that has embraced every Nation in this World for as long as time has been recorded. It's simple once you see it, engraving is an ART accomplished only by true Masters of the Art. How many of you have stated that "WOW, if only the Paper Money today were more like what it once was"! I have said it and wish with every ounce of my soul that the BEP would release Special engravings of currency like they do commem coins!

Everyonce in a while you will see a special coin and currency set, but that is only every once in a while! Coins are a market and the U.S. Mint knows this very well. Heck, they used to get thousands of dollars from me every year!

SO please do not misunderstand my thread, I am trying to make a valid point that the ratio of coin to paper money collectors is a lopsided giant!

I so look forward to the day that Paper Grows into the beast that coins have grown into.

Best regards everyone,

RickieB

 

There have been many valid points made about this topic so far. The fact that paper’s life-span in circulation is considerably less than a coin is likely a huge factor in their collectibility. I heard one guy at a coin show state that he could hand a coin to his grandkid, and the kid could drop it, touch it and do what he liked with it, and it’s still the same coin. He told his friend that if he handed the kid a piece of paper, the kid could crumple it and it would be ruined. That comment made me think about all those “white glove” coin collectors who would freak out about the kids fingerprints, dings scratches and whatever else could result from dropping it. I suppose that person wasn’t collecting BU or Proof coins, but he was right in that paper money requires a little extra care in handling; An XF condition dollar can become crumpled in your pocket and reduces a grade easily. An XF coin can be retrieved with little worries. Personally I find that this fact makes paper all the more interesting to collect and preserve for future generations.

I’ve read other posts about this subject and most of those who own coins have answered that they like the metal, and the weight of a coin collection. Many have mentioned that the weight gives them a feeling that there is something substantial in their hands, which paper doesn’t do for them. As for myself, I’ve been hooked on collecting paper money long before I could ever get any. When I was a kid, there were no shops that had paper, only coins. I collected coins for a while, but they were always a substitute for paper. Before the Internet made buying paper money so much easier, being able to find out about paper money and how to get it was always much harder. Perhaps that’s a part of why I wanted to collect it so much more.

But this hobby, for whatever its reasons are for being a lesser sibling to coin collecting, is exploding in popularity. Take a look at how prices have skyrocketed and how once common issues are now scarce and some scarce issues are now unobtainable to anyone unless they’re filthy rich. We are at a wonderful time in this hobby. I feel that it is this time when paper money collecting is being ‘discovered’ that we’ll fondly look back on. As the hobby continues to grow, there will be more books, website, forums, etc devoted to paper money. There are several people that are on this forum and others who are destined to be the future ‘great’ collectors of paper money. Some know who they are, and others have no idea what they’re in for. As for the rest of us, well, we’ll be able to say “I know that person!”

- Dave

 

I would say my opinion of collecting comes down to the basic beginning of most peoples interest in the coin/paper hobby. Their first find, which is usually in change. People eventually start looking at their change and start to see neat things. This then turns them into 'roll searchers'. This sparks their hobby even more since they will be finding many more older coins, I still roll search and find wheats every few rolls of pennies. With paper it is a bit harder to 'roll search'. Just to search 100 $1 bills it costs $100 withdrawl from the bank. I think this discourages people from coming into the hobby.

Beyond getting started, I also agree that paper costs more since the face value alone is high beyond $1 and $2 bills. I have many bills now for my paper money collection and also many coins. I find both extremely interesting but I love the designs a lot more on the paper. I feel also is it much easier to grade coins (maybe because of my experience in it more then paper) because you really just need to look at luster and the high points in a coin to determine the grade. With paper it comes down to color, crispness, tears, rips, corners, etc.

Another reason I think it is harder to get into paper money is the many many people that try and build sets of a certain (or all) coins based on collecting every year. With paper it is a lot different as they change the dates less often and many times you cannot relate the date printed with the actual date it was printed.

I also agree with the precious metals statement.

 

I'm quoting myself here RickieB. I said notes older than 1923 are too expensive, well I just bought a 1917 Large $1 and it's all your fault.
THANK YOU!!

 

Congrats on the Sawhorse note!!
Please post a pic so we can all enjoy it! :thumb: :thumb:

Shame on me....LOL


RickieB

 

Part of the reason not so many PM collectors is because they don't know about your contests!
and
At the most basic, paper money is not shiney. Its a primative thing. People like shiney stuff.

 

Noost...you are a funny man, that has had a good run on contest's lately.
Put in the work and reap the reward...at present, all the "non High end AU and below" notes are gone.....might not be any more contest for a while...LOL

Glad you got to benifit from them, you worked for it!

Nice job...


RickieB

 

I'm definitely with you on that one RickieB and it applies to modern as well friends. I'm going to kind of float off topic here with a few examples and comparisons.

People are clamoring over the new Lincoln Cents. Just paying STUPID money for coins that will be produced in the millions. We have them at work. I own ZERO because the quality of the coins is just plain garbage. This being the case dealers in magazines are selling slabbed 65 and 66 at $30-50 per coin. Get a 67 and it big bucks.

Conversely, I have been sitting on a few notes I've pulled from circulation. Two of those being CU 1999 F-* notes. 640,000 printed. MANY spent and DESTROYED by now as that happens with paper. How many remain?
So I might argue that there are, let's say, 10,000 CU examples remaining. How many BU 2009 Lincolns are going to survive - how many MILLIONS. It will and already has turned into a "grade game".

So guess what RickieB? My notes will be slabbed some day and the population will be low. As much as I don't slab notes (you know this of course) the practice will actually help catapult the Paper Money end of collecting.

Paper is in a lull right now as it were but believe me 8-10 years ago it was really hot. It will happen again.

 

Only pics I have for now.

 

That is a nice sawhorse, looks nice a nice clean color on the paper. Too bad about the folds though.

 

That is a NICE sawhorse, one I would be proud to own.

 

Pennywise...

Some food for thought for you...
Joseph Prosper Ourdan (born NYC Feb 16th, 1828- died Washington Dec 10, 1881. His apprenticship was under W.L. Ormsby, thenhe engraved independently for several book publishers. He worked for the Continental BN Co in NYC and probably for the American Banknote Co in Phillie.
Ourdan was one of the first engravers to come to the BEP (he did so after Oct 20, 1862). He became chief of the engraving division there.
In 1867 he joined the National Banknote Co.

(The Vignette in the upper left corner).



Nice note...congrats on adding it to your collection!


RickieB

 

Great topic Ricky. As you know, I collect both, though I have a lot more in coinage than paper. Here are my theories:

1. Tradition: Many of our coin collecting interests came from being introduced to it by our fathers, and they their fathers, and so on. This is powerful.
2. Tactile: A coin in the hand just feels better than paper. It is shiney, it is heavy, you can flip it, etc.
3. Knowledge: This goes along with the first one, but at a young age, I knew that the penny to own was the 1909 s vdb.....because of my father. I think the public knows more about coins and therefore collect it more.
4. Treasure hunt: Coin collecting is a treasure hunt, and lets face it, more coins pass through our hands in our lifetime than bills. Many know that a special coin may be in their next handful of coins. Again, this relates to the previous item.
5. Longevity: You can get a 70 year old penny in change which will spark an interest in the treasure hunt, but it probably wont happen with paper as its shelf life is very short.
6. Coinage is just more interesting to most folks because they have never seen some of the old bills but have seen a merc and Rosie dime, a franklin and kennedy half, 50 state quarters, etc. Nearly all of the public have only seen George, Abe, Andrew, etc. on the same bills their whole life and not seen anything else. For example, I just saw my first $5 indian chief bill a month ago and now I REALLY want one.

Those are my theories. I always appreciate your posts.

Bob

 

I do not think the reason is cost, but availability of notes and exposure to the young collector.

On a paper money discussion board when this topic was discussed it turned out that the average age at which the participants began collecting paper money was the mid 30s. Coins was late teens. Most paper collectors migrate from coins at a later age. Few begin directly with paper. (I am one of the exceptions to these statistics. I started at 19 directly with paper.)

There are thousands of notes from other countries that are attractive and inexpensive. The problem is that there are limited places to find them. You can put together a very nice set of WWII era notes from both sides of the war, for example, for about $100.00.

Your local coin dealer may have his junk box but he puts little effort into paper money because the profit margin is not there. If you want to find nice, inexpensive notes to collect you have to search the web or go to a show. Even at a typical local coin show the amount of paper available is limited.

It is difficult to maintain interest in a hobby when you are only exposed to it a few times a year.

Compare this to the beginning coin collector who can go week after week to the local coin shop and hunt through the junk bins for treasures.

All the discussion regarding paper money in this thread is directed at US notes. Apparently no one considers collecting inexpensive world notes as a worthwhile pursuit.

 

Lettlow...

That is quite an interesting observation.
I tend to agree with your remarks on the migration from coins to PM.
For me that did not happen until my early fifties!

However, the remark on collecting World Notes caught me a little off guard...LOL
While for me, my interest are US Notes, however, that does not mean that I feel differently about World notes. Simply put, I am fascinated by the mind boggling collections of world Notes quite a few members here have! I hold their collections in the highest regard....once you began reading about the engravers who are credited for the vignett engravings, you soon learn that many of these same people are the ones who created Vignetts for notes, stocks, stamps and all kinds of security documents all over the world!

For me...I have a hard enough time trying to remember the info on US Notes much less the notes of Countries all over the World! I for one am truly impressed with the knowledge, desire and accumulation of some of our friends here and at other sites. One day, I hope to join the ranks of people like this, however, my focus remains on US Notes for personal reasons.

I would simply love to be in a room with all the folks here that have accumulated so much knowledge. In a way, you can say that here we are all members of a large club thats meets on the internet...just think if we all could meet in person once a month!!

My personal congratulations to all of you of which I speak. There are many of you that have and hold my respect and awe at your collections!

Very best regards,

RickieB

 

I love world notes, as you know, and have a nice little collection of them.

 

I started directly with paper as well...probably at about 15. It's always been sort of a 'casual' hobby though. When I was younger years could go by where I didn't even think about it. Fortunately I kept the small collection I had and started adding to it again about 8 years ago.

 

On other boards, I have seen members ask who is going to the next major show (CPMX, Memphis, ANA, St. Louis, Long Beach, etc.) They arrange to meet for dinner or drinks or BS. Although not all of us attend all these shows, there is no reason this board cannot do the same thing.

Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend Memphis but it is the next big one. I will start a thread on it. Even if just two of us are able to get togeether at a show it will be a good start.

The other thing that I will recommend (which I have done many times before) is to attend the SPMC and IBNS meetings held at the major shows. Many of the big players go to these meetings. You do not have to be a member of the organization to attend.