Ability to Grade is the Result of Hard Experience

Do you agree or disagree with Doug Winter?

"You can read about grading, you can take grading classes, you can set yourself up as an expert on grading in chat rooms, etc. But there’s only one way to really, truly learn how to grade: you have to buy and sell coins and you have to do it in a situation where mistakes are going to hit you directly in the pocketbook."

http://www.coinlink.com/News/commen...der-and-some-thoughts-on-third-party-grading/

 

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Well, to some extent yes
Without mistakes, you can never really learn anything
I believe that you just have to keep practicing, when it comes to grading
Looks at coins carefully, and ALWAYS compare.
Finding the nice coins, raw, is tricky, because half the people buying think they will pay MS62 money, and get it graded, and make a profit, but then it comes back AU55??? It is because they don't know what to look for when grading a coin, and if they did, they were dumb, to buy one RAW, they were hoping off flipping, online.
A lot of gold coins, are dangerous to buy online, simply because they are hard to grade when not in hand, and I guess that goes for any coin really.
Taking Incused Indians, as an example. These coins are extremely hard to grade, and sometimes TPG mess up, I'd personally never buy one raw, and don't understand, why people who are thinking of flipping do either, without seeing in hand. Over the internet, you can't see certain marks on the coin, due to the seller, who might have edited the photo, making an AU, look more like a MS65. Also, cleaning is hard to detect as well, a lot of sellers enhance the images on the coins, and change the colors around, so you really can't tell.
I say sometimes, you have to get bitten on the butt, to learn!
Grading will always be difficult and there is no easy way to do it, or learn it, just practice, practice, practice, and get a grading book, or a guide to the specific coin, that you collect

 

As worded, I disagree. I don't buy the "there's only one way" thinking.

I will certainly agree that one learns from mistakes - or should. The anecdotes he's describing would certainly leave indelible memories ! I agree with that.

I strongly agree that one must sell coins in order to really understand what's going on. No matter how much you know, or think you know, there's a lot missing if you never sell anything.

 

I would have to agree, although I don't think it has to hit you in the form of a $10,000 loss. I remember a few months back (only been collecting about 1 year) I bought my first un-slabbed MS Barber quarter. Payed what I thought was a lot, $100, got it home and posted it on here. I really didn't notice it at first but sure enough, it had some hairline cleaning marks. Lucky for me I didn't have to take the loss, my dealer was kind enough to take a refund. I know for sure I have many years of mishaps to deal with. I just try and keep them to a minimum!


-Josh

 

Like 900 I agree to an extent but buying and selling coins is not the ONLY way to learn to grade coins. It is ONE way to learn, and a GOOD one.

To make an analogy, you can study a book on flying a plane and you can attend a course on how to fly a plane but the only way to really learn to fly a plane is to sit in the cockpit, grab the yoke and FLY a plane.

 

I agree 100%.

 

It definitely takes a lot more experience than I have to be good at grading coins. That's why I try not to spend too much. Hopefully since I got an early start in numismatics, I'll be good at grading by the time I'm an adult.

 

absolutly agree
it is a tough school in which some never graduate, when you do, the money making begins, and yes, tuition is very costly.

 

I too, somewhat agree. You basically have to do "all of the above". You must study the books, the coins, the techniques and of course lots and lots of practice. The buying on your own grading for profit means you must be good or you'll be spending some "extra" money. You must be able to learn from others without the "I'm a better grader than you" attitude. I've seen this pop up here occasionally where one unnamed person will swear by his grade and 6-10 people will disagree. Not the norm here.

Grading coins is subjective and one's own opinion. When you buy the coin you expect to concur with that grade, or why buy it? It's also good to trust the grader/seller you're dealing with. A lot of that goes on here, at CoinTalk. It's a good place to be.

Bruce

 

I will pay so called "book prices" when I trust in someone's grading. I will do this because they've worked very hard over the years to sleep at night and I like too also.

 

I don't equate grading to selling. Learning to grade takes a lot of time and experience. I still see myself as a beginner. What this does not explain is how to get coins at greysheet bid prices, then it does not explain how to get them graded cheap enough to where you make money. And last but not least it does not tell you how to sell the coins. It should clearly state buy raw, get PCGS graded, sell for profit. Here is what I got from the short article - buy low and sell high so you don't lose 10k. DOH - why didn't I think of that. It also does not explain how to determine the worth of a coin - not all technical grade 64's will bring the same money. I also do not see where it says to specialize - which would really help some starters. Now - how do I get MS64 RB IHC's for greysheet bid - raw, graded, etc. - where this will work?

Also working with a good dealer is must - better yet how to find a good dealer. I also think learning about coin conditions is a must. Last but not least if I find an above average AU large cent, pay ASK for AU coin, it grades AU, then put it on EBAY(or heritage)and it sells for VF money. Where did I go wrong? Was my grading wrong? If I buy an AG coin and sell it for XF - am I a good grader? This happens on ebay all the time. Last but not least I could be a crack out artist and make money on ebay - how does that improve my grading. Based off this article SGS has some excellent graders.

This is just my opinion and I find the article lacking.

 

I think experience in buying and selling based upon a perceived grade is more of a test of negotiation and selling skills than it is a test of grading ability.

 

ask someone who has put their money on the line.

at one point i was money rich and experience poor. a very dangerous situation. heck yeah, i'll go bid on that svdb for 3500, then only to sell it later for 3200.........tuition

grab that svdb off heritage for 4200...........later sell on the website for 4050

being a dealer is great, we make tons of money

i have since learned... and yes it has been costly and painful.....but that is part of the process. now, i am a better seller, buyer and looker...all the result of experience, some good some bad

i can not stress enough, it takes time and experience. experience cost money. tuition. dues. losses.

we see these pro dealers out there, they are awesome to watch and learn from, but trust me folks, they as well have paid the tuition. it only seems easy now, now that some are set in and solidified, that they can coast thru a show, make some cash and give a show report as if it does not hit home.

it does hit home. every show, every dealer looks at the book to see if it is worth coming back.

 

So do I!

 

Great point Jack. I have lost plenty of money on my mistakes. Got to own up to them, analyze, and learn. That's why I personally have posted some of my more stupid actions and purchases. Helps me and others. It's like therapy for me and certainly will help others.

 

The only way is the way that works and that's

The only way is the way that works for you and that's where the rubber meets the road!
I had to make my mistakes and they were numerous.
A book alone can't help you nor a grading guide.
Looking at graded coins alone can't help you.
Seeing raw and graded coin side by side alone can't help you.
Talking to people about coin grading alone can't help you.
But put all these things together combined with years of doing all the above will help you but even then you may not be an expert till -
you study each series in depth taking years of time learning.
An expert is an expert because he/she knows more than most everyone on that coin - yes it all boils down to that coin, that series. How it looks, how it changed over the run of it's series, the different planchets, was it minted during war years, did it change composition, was there a change in minting procedures over it's run, were there differnt master dies or hubbs, etc. - I could go on into infinity as you can see.
The best lessons in life I paid for with blood, sweat, tears, time, and money - the easy lessons ain't worth a hill of beans.
You do not however need to do all the above to enjoy numismatics, only to be an expert or specialist.
If there was a short cut someone would have found it by now - but when has there ever been a shortcut to true knowledge?

 

Jack - what you don''t mention is your grading ability - were these purchases because your grading was off or because you were learning the art of buying and selling? That is a skill I do not possess - and yes I am still learning to grade.

I think Doug summed it up better than me. I know for a fact if I went to sell some of my raw IHC's they would not bring a profit - but also not a big loss. I also think if I placed some of my bust halves on ebay they would bring a little profit(as long as I did not use the clean word). Neither of which would make me an expert.

Learning from this board and previous purchases is probably the biggest reason I buy so few raw coins on ebay anymore. I also pass up graded coins - this board has helped me a lot. One of the reasons I have been around so long. Does not mean I will not make a bonehead purchase now and then, but I think I have improved.

 

I think everybody can learn something here...
Mark, as you have learned, I have too
I started collecting in July of 08', this board has helped me, a lot
As has other forums.
I hardly buy anything raw anymore... And I find myself passing up a good graded coin, just so I can be patient, and get a better grade, for the money
Everything in this hobby takes TIME, PATIENCE, and EXPERIENCE
I don't think you have to love hundreds upon thousands to learn, but it is somewhat a good way of learning. I think if people pay more attention to the numismatic knowledge here, and really listen, I don't think a lot of people would be making any mistakes, but we are all human, so it is bound to happen one way, or another
I just don't think you have to lose a bunch o' money, to learn anything
We can all learn, just by taking a deep breath, taking a step back, reading some posts, and practicing what we know, and factoring in things we learn
I agree with ya'

 

a little of both actually. the 1st 2 mint state svdb's i bought i lost on due to my inability to spot an a-b-or c coin, i was buying plastic. after they sat for too long, i sold at a loss to raise cashflow. this was over a year ago, and i have spent countless hours in the heritage lot viewing rooms studying mint state copper of all kinds since, as well as walking shows doing the same thing.

after reading the last travers book, i fine tuned my abilitys even further and have made more than a cpl succesful crack upgrades. i will never stop learning, but the last 15 or 16 months have been a real education.