Grade this saint

So true..I doubt I will ever buy a coin from a photo..slabbed or not.

 

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Well yes, you are right...
It is personal fault, if YOU chose to buy a coin, over the internet...It is a risk, most of us are willing to take..And if there is no return policy, then sadly, YOU made a mistake...
Yes, it can all be related back to the buyer, because if they were not sure, THEY should of asked for, BETTER PICS...
Well, that is an eye opener... Certainly better than what I said before...
But..
If the seller was trying to hid something, and claimed that the coin pictured, or how the coin was pictured, was how you will receive it, and it is not that way... There can be blame put on the seller, if he doctored the photos...

 

Well, I've gotten past that hump.. ALL my coins have been bought online...
And I think I've done pretty good, on what I've paid, and how they look...
ONE THING I WOULD NEVER DO...
Buy a coin, without pictures, and just take the TPG's opinion for it...

 

Well, you will find that often times a AU58 will have much better eye appeal than a low grade MS. That's because an AU58 will have barely noticeable wear and practically no bag marks while a low grade MS can have lots of bag marks but no wear. This goes back to the old "AU63" concept that has been discussed here on the forum so many times.

One thing you have to understand is the grading criteria for a quarter eagle and a double eagle are VERY different. Double eagles are large gold coins, the combination of the soft gold and the large surface area creates a perfect scenario to make bag marks. Because of this, graders often forgive the large gold coins for having a fair amount of marks on them. As long as there is no wear (which this coin must not have...I can't really tell from the photos) they can earn significant MS points. Now, based on the photos I would say this coin is a bit too marked up to be a 65 IMHO...but I could see a 62 or 63 easily. This is not the case with the smaller gold coins. Because they have a much smaller surface area they aren't as prone to bag marks and thus don't get forgiven for bag marks like the larger coins are.

 

Yes, AU coins can look better than BU coins...
I honestly believe though, that PCGS messed up on mine though...
Grading is just an opinion, and my opinion is MS60.. LOL The feathers are sharp enough to cut a diamond.. LOL
Now, yes grading different coins, designs, and sizes, is all different.
Different designs, have different spot on coins, in which detail is needed to make it a certain grade.
You can't compare a ST Gaudens to a Quarter Eagle, this is true...
I agree with you... I think this coin was over graded...

 

Lehigh, I know there was no intention of a personal attack

 

I'm sure buying online works for some people..I just don't think it would work for me. I want to see the coin in hand and know who I am buying from.

Having done product photography in the past, I know that a camera is no substitute for the naked eye. Therefore, I don't trust photo representations of coins.

Also, I have 3 very reputable dealers close to me (one across the street!).
So I don't feel the need to venture online.

 

Well that is how it works for some people...
My nearest dealer is overpriced, and isn't that near really...

 

Grading is more than an opinion. It's true that it is subjective to a degree (it's an art not a science)...but it's certainly not just an opinion. That being said, why do you think this coin is only a MS60?

 

Was not talking about this Gaudens... LOL
I was talking about my quarter eagle, I used it to compare...
I've compared mine to other AU58's, that I've seen, and mine happens to look better... More of a luster, with some of the same contact marks, but not exactly as much...
Now as for my statement, grading is not something that can be mastered, ever... You can get good, and better, but somebody will always disagree with you, and have a reason for it
We can all explain our reasons, for assigning a grade to a coin, and if you can't than you just really took a stab in the dark..

 

I have no doubt that your AU58 Indian looks better than some MS examples...with better luster and such. But, those Indian's are very hard to grade. I believe you said it is a PCGS graded coin.

When a coin is graded AU58 it means that it has excellent eye appeal and would be a nice MS coin if it didn't have a very minor hint of wear. Based on the fact that it is in a PCGS slab...I'll bet it has a very small rub somewhere that knocked it down to AU58 from MS65 or so. For a coin to be MS, it must have no wear. I completely agree that your coin looks great but I'll bet if you look close you will find a tiny rub. That means the coin can't be MS.

Because PCGS is so reputable, I would give the benefit of the doubt that there is wear on it.

IMHO, AU58 coins can be some of the best deals because you get a coin that blows many MS coins out of the water with eye appeal for AU money.

 

Grading the quarter eagle

1)Luster – determining luster is very important in grading a quarter eagle, the more the luster, and less wear, the higher the grade
2)Bag marks – These coin usually have many minor marks, and nicks, that lower the grade. A mint state quarter eagle, has bag marks on it, but most are not that easily seen. The determining factor between an AU and BU sometimes, is not how many marks, but the position of the marks, on the coin itself.
3)Rub – this is the most difficult to see on these coins. Look at the Cheek and the Eagles Left wing(right side of coin facing you) near the eagles head. The reverse of this coin is usually struck well, the observe can show some weak areas. In order to see rub on the cheek make sure you tilt the coin and look at it from different angles under magnification, under good lighting.

Grading these coins is always tough, because a lot of the nicks and dings, are barely visible, and you need proper lighting and good magnification, in order to see it
These coins would need to be so well preserved to have a real high grade one, so if you are buying raw, and think you are getting a BU, make sure you do it in person, where you can see the coin before you buy

 

I know how to grade Indian's.

What I'm trying to say is take your coin and get it under a light. Look at it at different angles, roll the slab around and look at the reflection of the light. I'll bet there is a dull spot on the coin, that is a rub. That is why it was graded AU58 and not MS65.

 

Well, I've been doing that my friend...
I still don't see it... With magnification, and blowing up pics
The post above is the post I added onto the thread I started about Gold Indians in coin chat

 

Well, your statement that the coin is MS60 and not AU58 indicates to me that you still have quite a bit to learn about grading (and I mean no disrespect by that, we all had to start somewhere). The truth about AU58 coins is they are almost always nice high grade MS coins that have a touch of wear. They are closer to MS65 than MS60.

For a coin to grade MS60 it needs to have no wear but be fairly marked up. Typically, MS60 coins have lower eye appeal because they have dings. Luster can be decent but isn't necessarily booming. MS65 coins have no wear and have very little marking. Luster on an MS65 coin must be very nice.

Which description does your coin sound more like? I'll bet it's the MS65. The reason is...is if you take that MS65 and give it a small rub it becomes an AU58. If you give the MS60 the same rub it is not an AU58 because it has too many bag marks and dings. So, I doubt your coin has MS60 looks.

This is why many collector's will jump on a AU58 coin. It has the eye appeal of a choice BU without the price. AU58 coins are the best bang for the buck IMHO.

Given a high resolution picture, I doubt I could pick out the wear. Coins like this can be very hard to find it in hand let alone in a picture. I imagine it is probably there because I have faith that the PCGS graders can see minor wear but it sounds very invisible which is a good thing. Enjoy your coin, in all likelihood you have a coin that looks MS65 for a fraction of the cost. :thumb:

 

Well, no disrespect taken... Always good to start somewhere.. lol
These coins a very difficult to grade, even when you have all the tips...
Too bad I couldn't have got an actual MS65 for a fraction of the cost... :desk: LOL!!!

 

I think those are the hardest to grade of all American coins. Also, the AU58 vs. MS65 concept is true of all coins...not just these.

There was a thread a while back (I think by Lehigh) about a conceptual grade called "AU63" which talked about finding high grade AU coins (like your indian) because they have the eye appeal of gem BU coins with a nearly invisible rub. That these coins can be had at a fraction of the cost of a BU coin and they look just as nice. Unfortunately, I can't find the thread. It was an excellent read.

 

I'll be on the lookout for that thread, do some digging... Don't worry about it...
I'll just be staring at my indian in the meantime... lol

 

Not to nitpick, but it was AU64 as a conceptual grade. The theory was that you can obtain expensive yet very eye appealing coins for a fraction of the cost of the mint state counterparts. This is especially useful for key date coins. Here is a link to the thread.

http://www.cointalk.com/forum/t41621/

Here is a photographic example of an AU64 slider, although not a key date coin.

 

Lehigh, looking at that coin for the first time, it looks nothing like an AU coin...
I'm going to read that thread...

It does make sense though... Even not with key date coins, coins that are expensive do this as well, and expensive just depends on the collector