What are your thoughts on the REEDED EDGE 1864-L Indian Cent?

I just posted this same question on the PCGS forum, but thought I'd get comments from this forum as well. I am very interested to know your thoughts.

I bought this coin many years ago and thought it was interesting so I decided to keep it for my private collection, thinking that it was probably hand or machine tooled by someone with too much time on their hands. I have some other interesting pieces, including a beautiful MS64 RB 1886 Indian cent with a nice clamshell rim, and an MS64 1861 with a large clipped planchet so, recently, I decided to have some of my private coins photographed by Todd/blucc (www.bluccphotos.com), including this neat 1865-L. Any way, Todd happened to show this coin to another forum friend who suggested it might have been minted from a foreign planchet. I don't know much about foreign planchet errors, so I thought I'd post this coin here for your comments. One of the photos has a regular Indian cent next to it for comparison. I also plan to bring it to Long Beach to show to a couple dealers who may have some knowledge as well. So please let me know what you think!

 

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That is one of the coolest and weirdest things I've ever seen before...
I don't much about foreign coins, and their planchets, so I'm not good with that either, but I'm sure somebody here might be able to help...
I wonder what PCGS would grade it is, and what they would put on the label, if they graded it! Very interesting piece....

 

Nah, not a foreign planchet, reasoning:
1) The reeding is not like any foreign reeding that I have ever seen, most are verticle (And, no, I am not claiming that ihave seen ever foreign coin).
2) The reeding is placed on the coin at the same time that it is struck, (see any article about the 'third die');
3) In the last picture shown, you can see that the 'reeding' changes in width as it progresses from left to right, nlt possibl in a mint product;
4) many other thoughts, all getting jumbled up right now, but I keep hearing 'post mint product'.

P.S. PCGS would not slab it, it is damaged.
oops, yup they would slab it, I forgot about the 'genuine' slabs now.

 

I have nevr seen a reeded edge like that on a foreign coin.

 

That's done by hand. It is really neat, though.

 

I can't lay my hands on it , but somewhere i have some personal correspondence from noted Dallas, Texas Numismatist Harry Davis regarding the possible existence of just such a piece. I don't have everything here with me , but I will put forth an effort to locate it. Jesus this was 30 yrs ago.

 

Definitely a weird one...

My gut says that its someone with a lot of time on their hands.. my heart hopes that it is an yet undiscovered pattern

 

It so much resembles a " cut bezel" that jewelers can produce, but if the edge is an actual part of the coin and not added, the normal cutter could not have been used, so then it would have to have been hand cut. Personally I do not see how the edge could have been produced mechanically using the mint striking equipment of 1864, so I would have to be in the post mint production group. But beautiful never the less, a real keeper.

Jim

 

done by hand I'd say - but still very cool.
We should start making our coins like that

 

Tooled is my guess -- but I hope Penny Lady is right and I'm wrong!!!

 

p.s. tooled or not, that's wicked cool looking & thanks for sharing this numismatic treasure!

 

If you look at some of the old love tokens out there, some of these engravers were very talented. It's a stunning piece, would love to have it!

 

Amazing is all I can - hand or machined it is very cool. Think I like about it is the color looks pretty original all around the coin and rim. Very cool indeed.

 

I was just asked to post the results of what people thought about this coin. I had also posted the coin on the PCGS forum, and people there and on this forum pretty much agreed with what I had always thought, that the reeding was man made probably about the time it was minted, and the consensus agreed that the reeding was extremely well done by a professional and since the reeding is very even, it was probably machined most likely by a jeweler for decorative purposes. Thank you for all your input!

 

I would be interested in knowing how they did that. The flutes (got a better name?) appear to have a lot of luster, but the only way I know that could be would be at the mint. I am pretty sure that is not the case due to the metal folding on the flutes. If you ever find someone who thinks they know how it was done. please post it.

 

There were some good possibilities suggested on this PCGS thread.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=720947

Here's one particular response that makes sense:

"This edge can be accomplished with a simple knurling tool on a lathe. Smaller diameter sacrifice stock is placed on either side of the host coin, (like a sandwich) the knurling tool can then be applied to create the reduced diameter decorative edge design.

Any gun manufacturer from the Civil War era on would be able to create an example as such."

 

I am familiar with the process. Not that I am an expert (far from it), but the methods I am aware of would not produce such smooth surfaces and, not that I have looked for it before, there is that luster. I would be extremely surprised if any knurling tool I have seen would produce any luster. Also, it takes a lot of force to put that dent in the metal. You have to rigidly hold that coin. I am not sure what to use today to hold the coin without marking it and this was done in the 1800's, or at least seem to have been done then.

All that being said, I know of no more likely method of doing it shy of minting the whole coin.