Had this in my collection for a long time, kind of got it with other stuff and let it sit forever, finally took a close look at it and would like to know more info on it, Authentic? Grade? Value? Variety? From surfing around the net I know it was minted at the mexico city mint by the mint mark and that it is a 2 reales by the 2 on the back. All of the lettering and details are pretty sharp, in the pic on the side with the date (obverse?) it looks like the left side is weak or worn, it isn't that must be something with the camera angle, it is very clear and sharp, it says VTRA I can also read the letters on the drape around the left pillar it says plus but only part of the letters on the other pillar. Composition doesn't really seem like silver, maybe pewter? Any input is appreciated.
Not really the best pics for this but the coin appears to be a cast fake. Can you get it weighed and report back ? If you do not have a scale you can get it weighed at a jewelry store, we need the weight to the hundredth gram like this - XX.xx grams.
I will try to do it, I know in the pic it looks kind of grainy in the fields like you would see with a cast piece but it really does have very smooth fields on it, also, I don't see any seams anywhere along the edge, and the worn areas do have that worn dull look to it. Wouldn't there be a big varience in the weight of original coins? Imperfect planchets, decades and decades of wear, damage etc? Thanks!
Actaully the Spanish were quite precise when it came to the weight of their coins. They had tighter tolerances then than we do today.
and I put the micrometer on it, but through the plastic flip so it wouldn't be on the coin, so including the plastic one each side it is 25.88 mm. It also has the "tulip" edge on it.
Then I feel confident it is a fake. The weight tolerances for 2 reales of the period were 6.7660 to 6.8658 grams. Couple that with the look of the coin - weak, mushy detail, what looks like casting bubbles, and you have a recipe for a fake.
I've got a question about the mintmark-- I've got a Mexican 8 reales piece made 4 years later, and the Mexico City mintmark-- the M with a circle above it-- appears at both 8 o'clock and 4 o'clock, yet it appears at only 8 o'clock on the 2 reales piece illustrated above. When did they start adding the M with circle mark to both left and right sides, and was it used on all silver reales coins?
Thanks, just curious, this coin from the notre dame collection website, the weight for this 2 Reales is listed as 6.12g and the diameter at 26.2mm That is farther away from the weight range you listed as acceptable, but I doubt that ND has a fake in their collection, was this a different composition for 1740? I swiped the pics too. 2R 1740 Mo-MF Philip V pillar coinage (Mexico City) Obverse: PHILIP · V · D · G · HISPAN · ET IND · REX [six petal rosette] Reverse: VTRAQUE VNUM / [rosette] Mo [rosette] 1740 [rosette] Mo [rosette] Weight: 94.3 g (6.12 grams) Diameter: 26.2 mm Comments: This is an exampe of the first milled or "pillar" coinage. On the obverse to the left of the crowned Spanish arms there is . M F representing the initials of the assayers Manual de Leon and Francisco de la Peña y Flores who worked together 1731-1754 (see, Pellicer i Bru, Glosario, pp. 40 and 154). To the right of the arms is the denomination 2 with a rosette above and below, for two reales. On the reverse Mo is the mintmark for Mexico City. On the columns is PLUS VLTR, an abbreviation for the motto Plus Ultra (More Beyond). Provenance: From the Robert H. Gore, Jr. Numismatic Collection. http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinText/Sp-milled.3.html
It seems to me that it could be one of those replica pieces that are sold in souvenir shops at historical sites. I have a similar piece, a 1746 Lima shilling replica that I bought at a Massachusetts historical site many years ago.
Also, I will try to get some more pics, in order to get the right size I had to put the camera in manual focus mode, which may make the design look mushy, in hand my coin's details look as sharp and crisp as any other pic of a genuine coin I have seen. There are sharp edges on the dates and lettering under magnification, usually I don't see that on cast coins. I know what you are talking about when you refer to casting bubbles, I have a CSA fake dollar that has those, I don't see any casting bubbles on the coin, could you point out what details you are calling weak and mushy and what you are calling casting bubbles? Then I can look closer at the coin in those areas. I will be seeing my favorite dealer in the next week or so, so he may have an opinion but I don't know if he is familiar enough with these coins. Thanks again for the input.
On the 8 reale pieces all of them have the o over the M on both sides from 1732-71 - same for the 4 reales. On the 2 reale pieces the transition of having the o over the M on both sides to having the o over the M on the left only occurred in 1742. The 1 reale had the change occur in 1733 only, then back to both sides until 1742. Same for the 1/2 reale.
Well, all I can tell you is that I believe that the coin in the ND collection is a fake. Can I prove it to you ? No, all I can do is tell you the design specifications. You can believe what you wish. Here for example is an 8 reales piece, also from 1740, that used to reside in my collection. It was also a fake, and yes that was confirmed.
I rather doubt that he is, few are. I know far more about these coins than most dealers, have just about every book there is written about them, and I am far from an expert. And there are some very good fakes out there that will fool all but an expert. Here is a pic of a genuine example, different date but of the same era, also from my collection. Compare this coin to yours and you will readily see the differences. Bottom line is this, I can prove nothing to you using pics. But if you want to know for certain if the coin is a fake or genuine, then send it to Dan Sedwick, leading expert in the world on these coins, and ask his opinion. You can reach him here - http://www.sedwickcoins.com
Thanks, I am not doubting your opinion, you certainly know more than I do on the coins. I was wanting to know for my own knowledge how a coin in a large collection would be so far out of weight. In my mind .16g isn't a big varience especially when you consider wear on the coin, so I am just trying to reconcile the facts with the opinions. I can certainly see the elements you are talking about in the fake coin you posted, that looks like other cast fakes I have seen, it is grainy and kind of mushy. But it doesn't look like my coin. On the genuine coin you posted could you show me specifically the differences you are talking about between that one and mine? Again, not challenging you, but the differences I can discern are because of the different design being an 8 reales. I would like to know more about the differences. Also, if you have an online link for reference on all of the spanish milled coinage please let me know, I would like to do more research on my own and I don't get a lot of results from googling. Here are a couple of closer pics, I don't know if they will give a definitive decision either way for you. But thanks again for all your help, it has been very informative, my dealer said he has a collector that specializes in these and he will find out if he can meet me in the shop when he comes. I will let you know what they say.
I don't know how much good it will do, but here's another 1767 2-reales piece for comparison. This one was made at the Potosi mint, I think.
Neat, I can see some differences here, one thing that jumps out is that the crowns on the pillars are the same in this one, all of the other coins I have seen have a different crown on the left pillar, also, this one has a thicker rim coming into the fields of the coin, and the cross on top of the crown is larger and goes into the rim. Wonder if they had very different dies at the different mints. Look at the last pic of the real coin in GD's last post, it has the two different crowns as well.
Thanks for the tip about Sedwick. I sent him the pics and weight and dimensions and asked about values etc and he just wrote me back. Honestly, I wasn't expecting a response, at least not from him personally. I think I may get one of his 8 reales in the future, it is a neat site. I am still going to take this to the dealer to meet that guy probably next month so I will post the results. Thanks again for everyone's help! "It looks (and sounds) genuine to me, but the grade is too low for me to buy it. I would guess it is worth about $40 or so. Dan Sedwick"
