Slab grade follies – from EF-45 in 1974 to MS-65 today

I get emails everyday from a couple of coin dealers who offer me expensive U.S. coins. It’s bad form to go after a dealer’s offerings while they are for sale UNLESS it’s a counterfeit. So I will keep it general.

This dealer offered me an early large cent in an MS-65 holder. Given that this piece has a Sheldon number, it is possible to match the piece with photos I have in a book by Bill Noyes. The thing about many early high grade large cents is that they have an ownership trail that can often be traced. There are not that many of these coins around.

Sure enough, I found this one. In 1974 a major auction house sold this coin as an EF-45 for less than $500. In 1989 another major auction house sold it in a major grading service AU-58 holder for less than $3,500. Now it’s in a major grading service MS-65 holder with a price to match (high 5 figures).

This is one of the reasons why prices seem to be going down. Years ago, the same coins were in lower grade holders which brought lower prices. Now they are in higher grade holders at higher prices, but you are getting the same coin. I guess the coin “grew back” the areas that were rubbed, and the tiny marks on it can now be ignored.

If you own a similar coin in a lower MS holder, I guess the time has come to crack it out and spin the grading company wheel of fortune.

 

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So where are the pictures?

 

Good post sir. I was a collector of US halves mainly 30 years ago. Most of them were AU50-AU58. That was the price point I loved. I wonder how many of them would slab as a MS coin today. They are all sitting in a sdb, unslabbed. I chuckle when people post how ALL coins worth collecting have already been slabbed...

 

Ignoring the prices you posted, the grade differences may not be out of line.

What grading standards was the auction company using in 1974? Were they using EAC grading standards? If so, they could have easily looked at a coin that may have a tiny bit of wear and downgraded it to EF45.

Today that tiny bit of wear would be viewed as not fully struck or light friction and given a Mint State grade.

You can also find coins that went the other direction. I recall seeing lots of coins graded MS/PR70 in auction catalogs, but today they are in slabs at several grade points lower. And tons of coins called "Gems" that are in low MS slabs now.

 

I thought you were supposed to buy the coin, not the plastic?

 

Where's our pics . It don't exist if no Pics .

 

When a coin has small rim issues on both sides, it's not an MS-65, especially when the price goes the by 41% for the one point bump according to Coin Facts.

As I said before, I can't do that when the coin is in play.

What I want to do is to advice collectors not be totally influenced by the grading number on the slab label.

 

How about photos taking any TPG labels out?

 

MS-65 Sheldon large cents will be recognizable even without the holder

 

The auction firm in question was not known for conservative grading when they were active in the industry.

 

I know of an individual that has clearly stated that IF you want a coin graded give it to Mr. XXX, he will grade it send the coin to one of the TPG's with HIS GRADE and they will return graded as he stated. He will also break slabs and send them in with his grade and request a specific grade and if it is not to much of a stretch he usually gets his grade.
NOW GRANTED there are some very large dealers that send in hundreds of coins that they have graded and ask them to grade ONLY those that meet the stated criteria and return the rest. WE cannot afford to do that but it is done. THE TPG'S regardless of who the submitter is should NOT allow this practice.
Semper Fi
Phil

 

So maybe the coin was only an EF40 by EAC standards back then and they called it EF45 because they overgrade?

Had that coin been called AU58 or MS65 back in 1974, it likely still would have sold for $500.

 

I was buying coins back then, and an MS-65 graded 1794 cent would have cost you a lot more than $500 if it had any legitimate claim to the grade.

 

John, PLEASE post pictures.

 

Your first paragraph is an often told story. I've heard it attributed to several big time dealers since around 1986. The only sliver of truth to it I've ever found is that certain people can have the coin reviewed as a kind of unofficial regrade. Rather than go through the regrade process, they can state their case as to why it should be a higher grade. I've been told that sometimes it works, but mostly it does not. A generic MS64 does not magically become an MS65 just because they asked. However, they can make the case that a very low end MS65 that was graded MS64 belongs in an MS65 slab.

One more than one occasion I have questioned the grade of a coin and they have reviewed for free. One time a grader called me to explain why the coin didn't receive the designation I was expecting. Another time at a show I spoke to a grader on a recently graded coin and I complained that for the 3rd time it graded AU58 and I believe the coin is MS. He offered to take a look and upon regrade it was slabbed MS. Nefarious plot? No, they are just willing to take a second look when some people ask.

Your second paragraph sounds like bulk grading. Anyone with 100 of the same type coin can submit the entire batch at a reduced cost and you can list a minimum grade. Those that don't meet the minimum grade get returned raw and there is no cost to the submitter. This service is available to everyone. And I'm not sure if you personally can afford it, but the cost typically starts around $7 a coin, so it is affordable to most people.

 

Picture this, picture that, picture it...

 

Okay, here's a link.

https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4627834-003/65/

You can get nice close-up view of the coin with the "+" magnifier.

No doubt it's better than EF, but what about the rim issues on an MS-65 graded coin? Remember the price goes to 6 figures according to PCGS "Coin Facts." When you get to MS-65, the little stuff matters.

 

Hmm... I see that as a low AU at best, but nowhere near a 65.

 

I see a AU58+ coin, but thats using modern grading precepts.

There is flattening of the reverse denticles, plus the rim flaws.
There is flattening of the obverse denticles, along with slight wear spots to the hair over the ear, the hair under the R/LIBERTY, the eyebrow, the nose and the cheek.

I honestly can’t support a 65. NGC must use different criteria for this series...imo...Spark

 

If you ask a professional grader what is the biggest mistake amateur graders make, they will likely tell you that they tend to focus too much on one minor thing and not take in the entire coin.

Yes, this coin has some flatness on the hair. Is there anything in the fields that gives the impression that this coin has circulated? They are extremely mark free, especially the reverse. Most likely there is some weak strike and cabinet friction.

The rim marks are most likely minor planchet flaws, which is generally acceptable on such an old coin. The denticles are fine. If you question them, take a look at the PCGS site to see what they have put in an MS66 slab.

You can debate whether the coin is an MS65, but a grade of EF45 is just stupid if using the Sheldon Scale.