I've been looking at several completed auctions on ebay and Heritage auctions and I've noticed that bills graded by PCGS and PMG from 25 to almost uncirculated 55 but still have some noticeable folds in the bills. The lower the the grade the more visible the folds appear. Like a 25 could have 3folds vertical and 1 horizontal and the higher the grade the less folds. I just purchased a black eagle graded by PMG very fine 30 without any folds. Is there a website or book that would explain how grading works.For me a bill with visible folds would turn me away no matter the grade. The one thing I've noticed is that certain signatures on a bill would rate a higher grade. Sorry so long but I am just trying figure out different ways a bill is graded. Also could you tell me what this bill might be worth.Thanks a lot R.Beck
Signatures should have absolutely nothing to do with grade...unless of course someone else signed the note with a ball point pen after it was printed. PCGS has detailed information on how they grade their notes on their site... http://www.pcgscurrency.com/g_scale.html and this site has some info as well, along with pictures. Think I posted this in another thread for you... http://www.oldcurrencyvalues.com/GradingCurrency.html as for the value of your note, my guess would be around $200.
When you look at the grading standards you will see that folds come within the definition of certain grades. This does not mean that all notes with that grade will have folds. A new crisp note with three vertical folds and a horizontal fold may grade VF or EF because of the folds. At the same time, a note without folds may grade in that same range because it has more wear, dirt, etc. If choosing between these notes, it is a matter of individual taste as to whether you want the cleaner note with the folds or the dirtier note without folds. Because folds are part of the definition of certain grade ranges, the TPGs do not identify on the label that the note has folds. The same is true in the lower grades (Fine and below, I believe) for pinholes. They will not mention these defects because the standards say these defects are acceptable in these grades. This is one of the problems of buying lower grade TPG notes based on a scan. If the pinholes or folds are not readily apparent in the scan, you will be disappointed when you see the note in person when you can make out the constellation of Ursa Major in pinholes.
as explained, signatures on a note have nothing to do with grade, but alot to do with value. If you are seeing what appears to be certain sigs getting higher grades, then its possibly just the notes you have looed at that make it appear as such. Signatures do not factor into the grade at all. Wear, folds, holes and tears, writing ect... those are which affect the grade. The PCGS grading guide is a great tool, but keep in mind that its not the ebst thing to compare the PCGS guide to notes graded by say CGA as they have their own standards they follow.They should be close, but they wont be the same. I cant give a value of the note as the image is not large enough to see the details of the note. I also dont think anyone here would give a value based on the grade on the plastic I think most of us buy the note and how we grade it, not so much as what the plastic says its graded But to help you... if you think it is graded correctly, my 18th edition Friedberg book lists around $275-$300 - but is not the most current price guide. The image looks to be a Heritage image, andif it is, on the page where you see the image (if its a completed auction) there shoud be a list near the bottom of similar notes that have sold and what those prices are. If the image is not a heritage note.. i would go to heritage and do a search for completed auction for a FR# 60, or 1917 $2 legal tender. Try a few different search parameters. You shoudl get a pretty good idea to value for this grade hope this helps
Several other factors come into play here as well. A note that is graded VF as you mentioned without obvious folds may have embossing problems, handling marks from tellers, some foxing and slight ink smears, centering, margin and lack of margin differences. While grading is a matter of opinion, and I must say that I buy some high graded notes, is just that. I have had some notes come back with lowerthan expected grades and I have cutt them out and resubmitted to another TPG for a second opinion. If indeed it comes back the same as the first attempt I will follow up on the note and find out exactly why. Sometimes the smallest thing may be a big distraction or reduction to a notes grade....so goes the world of TPG and opinions!! In the example you posted the top and bottom margins are shy on each end (top and bottom) as well as some light foxing on the top reverse. It appears to have a slight amount of "wave" in the top margin as well that is not a natural paper wave...look close at the note and remember a scan will hide most small problems!! RickieB
I likey. Just got one in 58 for Just over $200, so I figure it's worth somewhere around that price. RickieB, if you would be so kind, what is foxing?
Wow, I hope this description isn't accurate... "Foxing is a reference to tiny brownish, red dots caused by infestation of lice that attacked the paper fibers of pre-1890 notes. " That's just NASTY!
Noost....the note he OP posted is a Great note to say the least!! Look at the reverse...at top center and left of center there are a few light brown spots beginning to form...on the face of the note this is mostly concealed via the dark inks...this may be from liquid contacting the note at one time or another, or even finger print oils...the browning of the paper is callled foxing. Along that same area it appears to have the "wave" I mentioned, however, the image is small and can not be enlarged on the post. Straining to see it...and I think, I am not sure this is the case, but it appears to me to be so.....if the OP would post the image again with it being able to be enlarged, it would help alot! Remember scans do hide alot of malidies on notes.... Regards, RickieB
Thanks, I always thought that was rust from a paperclip or something. Just to clarify, this cannot happen after a note is "slabbed"?
One writer is right about signatures having nothing to do with a grade but to footnote that, it might have everything to do with a notes value. Some signatures were from short term officials of the BEP and after they are replaced, new note with new signatures must be printed. Sometimes if they were really short term of time in office it's possible that note that were already printed but not distribted are pulled and destroyed making these notes very or extremely rare. To add on the term foxing... it is a term used by anyone who deals in paper items including newsprint. Improper storage is the main culprit here. There is tannic acid in most all paper, among other things, that when exposed to say too much heat or moisture will cause the paper to harden, discolor and become brittle and eventuall break off or apart with improper handling. jmo. Thanks
Not to be picky, but you mean the Treasury. The signatures of officials of the BEP have never appeared on US notes.
As with coins grading notes is subjective and TPGs and their graders will look at every note differently. Now we know coin TPGs have been over run with "garbage graders" - those that over grade everything for profit basically. It's starting to show in paper money as well. NOW, having talked to a few "local" experts in the past few weeks at work I've seen a bigger problem. Use of the MS scale does not translate real well into paper as there are really no set paramaters when one gets down to it. What makes a note a 63 or 65? Depends on who looks at it and what paramaters THEY are using. Example: We recently bought a fairly common large size $5 note at the shop. Clean and crisp, nice paper quality but with 3 heavy folds and probably the only three it has ever seen. I told my coworker VF30. Sorry but the folds knocked it down. A man I respect came into the shop to peruse some notes (he's a dealer) so I asked him about it. He noted (bad pun) the same things I did but said it would easily go XF. He also bought it. His reasoning was that the note was very clean (which it was), crisp (ditto) and great color as well. My reasoning was that the folds were heavy enough to start breaking the paper hence a lower grade. Who's right here? I can't say but it was a learning experience for me. My boss tends to toss paper money my way for opinions on grading. Usually, it seems, I'm real tough. Had some consecutive 1928 $2 notes come in one day and he bought them. He asked me to pick the best for slabbing so I did. I could "feel" the ripple and did not think it was natural wave. Figured AU58. We sent it in and it came back MS64EPQ from PNG. Conversely, I just got a few notes back from PCGS (first I've ever slabbed actually). The two modern notes came back very high. MUCH higher than I would have expected while my 1928F red seal $5 star note came back as XF40. I always pegged that note as AU or just under. So, I'm rambling but the bottom line is there needs to be better set standards for grading paper and THEN there needs to be a few reputable and consistent companies to perform the grading. I haven't seen it so far.
I don't have any graded notes in my collection, so I don't have any first hand experience...but I could see a case where the signatures would matter. As you have said, some rare notes are distinguished by more common notes by the signatures on them. We have all seen TPGs grade key date coins higher than a less rare coin even if the wear is the same. I'd imagine they might occasionally due the same thing with notes.
RichieB.... You are correct...there are certain Series of Notes that do have examples that signatures play an important role in the notes value. Most every Large Size has a more desired signature duo! The Series 1914 for example it is Burke/Glass....for Large size Brown Seals it is Rosecrans/Huston... and Rosecrans/Nebecker ...thes eare onlya few examples...many exist as well as seal type, size color, spikes or no spikes..just as varieties in coins, notes have their fine points too. Just the other day I found out about the "spiked seals" having a micro print serial number all of their own! This is something I am reading into as well as inspecting my spiked seal notes to discover these micro printings... Regards, RickieB
