reengraving Old Coppers - altering coins

I'm short bucks but spent a few minutes with my favorite coin dealer today. He's an older pure Brooklyn guy and I like visit in on him, and cheer up his day from time to time, whether I buy or not. Its part of my neighborhood thing.

In his day he was a fairly substantial dealer and he has a bunch of war stories. He put about $40,000 worth of 1793 Dollars in my hands today to look at and seemed to have Columbia Halves falling out of the over stuffed shelves.

So today he was telling me that years back that the "Crazy Copper Club" collectors and dealers habitually reworked that copper and engages in fine engraving work, including the biggest figures in the Copper Societies. Now, I trust frank. If he tells me it is true it is highly likely to be true. And he said he'd found a lot of these specific coins in slabs later. Some of these were $4000 coins even in the late 1970's. So I'm thinking that a lot of the old coppers have been tampered with. Anyone else with background on this?

One guy supposedly died when he accidentally drank the artificial toning chemicals he had been using to cover up his engraving jobs.

Ruben

 

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How many of these coppers have been retooled?

Ruben

 

Well, it's a given that the best forgeries/alteration jobs are the ones that have never been detected, so who can say for sure.

I also think that US "collectors" were at this sort of thing loooooong before the Chinese ever were.

 

I'm sure a lot of people have tooled pieces that have entered their collection, and the collector are completely oblivious of the fact.

As for the guy dieing because he ingested the re-toning agent... Hilarious

 

There's a lesson to be learned here... NEVER put your retoning agent in a coffee cup.

 

What is strange to me about this story is that he said it was endemic to the copper society

 

what surprises me is that as it was described it was rampant amoung the top people of the Copper Society and I'd have thought that this level of collector would be very conscious of the curator aspect of such pedigree coins. It seems that a lot of this was driven by the competitive business aspect of the club itself, and I'm sure many of these altered coins have made it into collections around the world, and if I understand correctly, also into slabs. Too me it is shady business and the least and an assult on irreplaceable historical artifacts.

Ruben

 

Reminds me of when we were kids. We used to tamper or alter coins all the time. Removed parts of dates, mint marks, noses, anything we could use an electric eraser on. Had those little eraser shields so we could just pin point one item. Always fun to make a 1944D into a 1914D Lincoln. Anything with an 8 in the date made into a 3. Of course we also did a lot of real damage with coins on RR tracks and many other things.
Probably to young at that time to join but if we knew about that club I'm sure we would have fit right in.

 

ROFL - thing is these guys are/were peddling their handiwork as authentic

 

1793 dollars? From where?

And your dealer friend is getting timelines and stories confused. Yes valuable early large cents have been re-engraved, retooled, recolored etc but for most of the higher grade pieces that were worked on that work took place back in the 19th century when the value of the coins was just a few dollars and such work was not frowned upon in the same way that it is today. I'm sure few if any of them have managed to get into slabs other than ANACS problem holders or NCS slabs. (with the exception possibly of some of the recolored ones.) But many of them are held in major copper collections in places of honor.

And I'm sure the story about someone dying from drinking the solution is a corruption of the death of J Sanford Saltus, President of the British Numismatic Society and benefactor of the American Numismatic Society who died in his hotel room while cleaning coins with cyanide and accidently drinking it instead of his ginger ale. This happened in June of 1922. (Using cyanide to clean coins was a common practice back then.)

 

There are a variety of stories that I condensed from a 2 hour conversation but his recollection of the tooling of the coppers was supported with evidence in auction magazines from the last 70's and early 1980's to finally making slabs into the present.

Ruben

 

As for the date of the Dollars, that would be my mistake not his if that date is too early.
Maybe they were 1794's. You can call him and ask if you want

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Ruben

 

I know I've got to be in the wrong thread, but perhaps somebody will see this and can offer some suggestions and maybe help me. I've collected for over 30 years, but I never ever clean, dip, or nuttin' like that, but I have a copper Large Cent I'd like to identify. Should I just try soaking in warm water perhaps with a little olive oil mixed in it, and stir every once in a while for a few days, and perhaps try a soft toothbrush to get some of the stuff off of it? Any lemon juice? I am ignorant when it comes to cleaning coins because I just don't do it.

I hate to, but it's no good to me if I can't identify it right?

 

Not sure anything will help that coin. To me if that shoulder is what I am seeing then I would say an 1839 booby head. Cerntainly looks late 1830's and I am not sure what would be best.

As for copper I am sure a lot was done way back when that people frown on. I know in the 70's and 80's dipping was okay - so times change. And yes - I do not doubt some of the best made it into holders. Then again if you can do work like NCS maybe they should be in holders.

 

My Grandpa and Grandma began teaching me about coin collecting 40 years ago, and it has been drilled into me about not cleaning coins, but I agree with you the coin is toast, and nothing can make it worse. I mainly just want to make sure that it wasn't some coin with a mintage of a few hundred. I think I'm safe there. At best, I think I'll just find out for sure what it is and the year perhaps. I appreciate your help. Maybe I'll learn some more about what not to do, ha. Thanks.

 

It is 1830's but I would say early 1830's probably 1833 or 1834.

 

Then it's possible it could be rare, but being in the shape it is, probably not worth much. After 30 years of collecting, I'm about to clean my first coin.
Thank you.

 

Where did you grow up? We played punch ball..