CNG Triton XXIV Results

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Al Kowsky, Jan 19, 2021.

  1. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    In Heritage Event there was a MS-65 Dukat from Pfalz-Sulzbach/ Karl Theodor/ it sold for 4K
    I bought a better coin as an unsold lot from German Auction
    for 1150 euros two years ago.:happy: German Auctions would have graded the MS-65 as a fast st. they even grade MS-66 as AU quality. In UK pub. "Coin World" on their auctions survey/ they laughed at a William III AV Guinea slabbed MS-61/ as a UK grade of GVF!
     
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  3. pprp

    pprp Well-Known Member

    And empty pockets :mad::mad::mad:
     
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  4. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Well-Known Member

    I generally ignore the old style of European grading because it tells you literally nothing. They would be better off not grading at all & just posting good quality photos ;).
     
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  5. savitale

    savitale Well-Known Member

    I'm curious if these unusual prices are more pronounced in US auctions. Though we live in a global economy, I would think that Americans are more engaged in the US stock market and associated fiscal stimulus, and those same people would prefer to buy from domestic sources.
     
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  6. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    I have been bidding mostly European Auctions/ crazy there too. However, AuctionWorld/ Japan is truly insane.....if this trend keeps up/ then it will become the, "Hobby of Kings"as pre-1900.
     
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  7. Michael Stolt

    Michael Stolt Well-Known Member

    I had a shower thought about this earlier today, more and more sales seems to be cleaned up by a diminishing number of paddles.
     
  8. Cucumbor

    Cucumbor Well-Known Member

    That's really insane prices, at least for my wallet !

    I'm now glad I got my silver example when I got it !


    [​IMG]
    Colonia Patricia mint ? ca. 19-18 BC
    CAESARI AVGVSTO, laureate head right
    SP - QR on either side of a domed terastyle temple, in which is a chariot with aquila.
    3,66 gr
    Ref : RSC # 279, RIC # 119

    Q
     
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  9. kazuma78

    kazuma78 Supporter! Supporter

    I had the same thing happen on 2 of the coins. I was bidding on the Heracleia Nomos and the Aegina land tortoise they listed. Both strikes are fantastic.
     
  10. Limes

    Limes Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the notification, I missed the listing. But seriously, these prices! If one compares the coins offered in this listing with other listings/auctions, everyone can figure out better deals are to be made, right? Do these listings of CNG target a very specific audience? With deep pockets and little time to shop around? It doesn't matter, I avoid shopping on the new continent, and as long as other retailers on the old continent don't get affected and prices overall don't increase in an absurd manner too ...
     
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  11. savitale

    savitale Well-Known Member

    I am probably in CNG’s target audience. I have had difficulties with overseas auctions in other collecting fields, including such things as export licenses, arranging for a shipping agent, outrageous shipping fees, customs hassles and duties, etc. I would gladly pay a small premium to avoid all that.

    In the general absence of third party grading, and since it is logistically difficult and expensive to see ancient coins in person before buying, I would also pay a premium if I could really trust a dealer to fully vet and disclose any defects.

    That being said, I’m talking about maybe a 20% premium, not 200%.
     
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  12. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Well-Known Member

    Q, That's a fine looking denarius with a superior portrait compared to the aureus :happy:!
     
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  13. Blake Davis

    Blake Davis Well-Known Member

    I’m a lawyer been studying, buying, selling and mostly collecting ancients for 21 years - limited to imperial bronze
     
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  14. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    The problem that bothers me more is the influx of new collectors who can not see the difference between premium and non-premium resulting in them bidding high on coins with surface problems. Today we see coins offered that would have been considered culls a few years ago but now labeled as if they were 'museum specimens'. We see it here on CT when a new person posts a very ordinary coin with a high price. Some of us pay for condition; some pay for rarity; some pay for not knowing.
     
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  15. IMP Shogun

    IMP Shogun Well-Known Member

    This actually isn’t a problem, it’s called a market and means the hobby is healthy. New collectors will always pay more than “value” but that doesn’t drive prices. Hobbyists are getting shutout of the high end and bidding up the lower tiers and willing to overlook flaws they would not have to obtain a coin.

    It’s similar to saying Home buyers are paying too much for flawed property because remember how low prices were in 1990 or 2008.
     
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  16. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    As I have said in other threads, there is a lot of cash out there looking for a place to park. There a a lot of newly minted millionaires, and even billionaires who want to diversify their holdings, outside of stocks and bonds. Coins of all stripes have been a favorite area of investment for decades for these folks. Ordinary collectors generally really don't have a chance to obtain nice high grade coins when bidding in these auctions, unless they are willing to sell the family farm. Nope, venturing into an auction these days, especially the really high-profile ones, such as Triton, for the ordinary collector is becoming more and more a spectator event.

    It is a shame, especially for young, new collectors who are trying to build their collections and raise a family at the same time, a challenging proposition even in the best of times. The wealth disparities, I believe, permeate all aspects of life, even collecting coins, be they ancients, world or US.
     
  17. Terence Cheesman

    Terence Cheesman Well-Known Member

    In response to Doug Smith, I have always thought that buying ancient coins is a bit of a dance. The reason being is that there are so very few perfect coins. When I get the opportunity to purchase a coin I need to look at; centering, strike, condition, style, damage done to the coin before, during and after it went into the ground, pedigree,.... the list is endless. Finally I have to contend with how much I am willing to spend which is usually determined by how "important" the coin is to me. I know my response to any of these issue is unique. On a few occasions I have had either directly or indirectly the question posed to me "why did you buy that ***** thing?" I have to assume that not everyone agrees with my choices nor will I always I agree with theirs. As Doug in a previous post so rightly and so succinctly put it there is more than one way to collect.
    In all of the angst exhibited over the results of Triton XXIV I could not help but to notice that some number of coins did not perform all that well. A number of electrum staters from Kyzikos had along with their pedigrees, the results from the previous auction. In nearly every case, these coins sold for less than what they did in those auctions. I cannot come to any conclusion about this except to say that an auction is something of a crap shoot.
    To illustrate my point Back in 2016 I was in Munich attending the Numismata. I saw this coin
    Chalkidian League Ar Tetradrachm Olynthos Mint Circa 350 BC Obv Head of Apollo right laureate. Rv, Kithara. Robinson & Clement Group V 128 HGC 500 14.49 grms 25 mm Photo by W. Hansen chalcidleag1.jpg Everything is great on this coin except for the issue on the reverse edge at 9 O'clock. There is some on the corresponding obverse edge but less so at 5 O'clock I had just enough money to purchase this coin but there was an auction the next day and there were coins I liked in that auction. However I really liked this coin. It would fill a significant gap in my collection. Well it is pretty obvious I decided I could live with the problem and bought it. I concluded that the issue though distracting did not interfere with any of the features on the coin. In a way it was a good thing I would have gotten skunked the next day. (sounds like sour grapes but it isn't) Well this coin has done its job. I wrote an article on it in the Planchet some years ago and I have featured it in all my seminars of Greek coins subsequently and I still like it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  18. Restitutor

    Restitutor Well-Known Member

    And yet so many still defend this practice...

    F16C9F8E-A64D-4F3B-8F1F-F3A79EBB79BA.gif
     
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  19. pprp

    pprp Well-Known Member

    I don't see any surface problems with your coin. I would say that is a plancet production feature. There is a minor scuff on the edge and a die slip resulting in the lips of Apollo to be not perfectly struck. I personally don't care about the flan not being round and not about that edge issue. I would care more for the lips. All coins have a client for the correct price.

    I got this which has obvious surface issues but is very rare and is of nice style. I forgot all issues when I got it for 525$ (plus fees)

    4150029.jpg
     
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  20. Volodya

    Volodya Junior Member

    Subjectively, it's of course perfectly reasonable and understandable to find this practice off-putting. Certainly, I've felt that way myself. Objectively though, I think the unhappiness is misplaced. A serious, focused collector with reasonable financial resources and clear targets should always be able to outbid even the most deep-pocketed dealer, unless one or both parties has badly misjudged the current market. A dealer who consistently pays more than a coin can be resold for won't be in business long. If a collector finds this happening to her or him with some frequency, I think they need to reassess their own evaluation of the market if they want to avoid frustration.

    Phil Davis
     
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  21. savitale

    savitale Well-Known Member

    It must be even harder on dealers than on collectors to acquire high-end inventory in this market. Before the internet most coins at auction were purchased by dealers since they could take on the burden of travel as part of their business. Now with collectors paying full retail at auction, there’s little room left for dealers.

    Now that I think about it, how many pure-play ancient coin dealers (without an associated auction house) are there left at the high end? Two or three?
     
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