Source: http://www.pcgs.com/articles/articl...e&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ezine03172009 -------------------------------------------- Originality and Toning David Hall and Ron Howard - March 16, 2009 What PCGS graders look for on a coin more than anything else is an original surface. There seems to be confusion about what constitutes originality in regard to a coin's surface. Some people think it means a coin that has original toning. That's not the case. To PCGS graders, original surfaces mean the coin looks as natural as possible. This natural look can occur in both toned and un-toned coins. To continue the example, a silver coin can be totally white and look either natural or over-dipped and washed out. The PCGS graders respond most positively to white silver coins that have natural, glowing luster and don't look like they've been dipped 20 times. ... The bottom line is, if you want to get the maximum grade possible according to PCGS standards, you should send in the most original-looking coins. -------------------------------------------- What are your thoughts on the above? Just wondering...Mike p.s. the entire article is available on the link provided above.
Yeah - but I have not seen jacks post yet. So the mods can always combine the two threads. IMO I have seen some blast white morgans that look lusterous - toned and untoned. Some of the older busties that have been blast white look completely unnatural to me - remember my opinion. Those I do not understand being in PCGS holders - I actually think the lower grades(AU and down) typically look nicer and more natural than the higher MS coins. Opinions.....
Foiled again! :hammer: I got so excited when I saw this, I didn't bother to check the forums for a duplicate post. Please accept my apologies, and if the mods see fit to delete this thread, I will certainly understand.
Personally, I find the use of the terms "originality" and "natural" quite interesting. Furthermore, I can't think of a single collector I know that would agree with the way they are defined/used above. How do you define "originality" and "natural"? Do the definitions include freshly dipped "white" coins? Just wondering...Mike
Surprisingly enough, a great many collectors do exactly that. They seem to equate originality with how the coin looked the moment it came off the presses. Many, many times coins have been referred to as original in that manner right here on this forum. It seems that to them that originality has a limiting time factor, in other words a coin can only be considered as original if it looks exactly the way it did when it was new. They consider toned coins, and toned in any way, including gunmetal grey or chocolate brown, as not being original at all precisely because the coins are NOT like what they were when new. So you have two schools - the "blast white" crowd and the "toned" crowd. Both consider their point of view to be the correct one and the other absolutely wrong. Doubtless PCGS is trying to please everybody at the same time.
Never really thought about it that way - I like RB and brown on copper better than original red. I guess I do like "toning".
FWIW, my ideal is, I want to see that master hub on that coin. That's my MS70, as it's the closest physical embodiment of the engraver's (artist's?) intent. A toned coin...whether NT or AT, it doesn't make any difference...is a different coin, altogether. It's like a colorized B&W movie, compared to the original, in which all the director had to work with to control such things as the viewer's eye-focus, eye-movement, feelings and mood, were techniques such as lighting, shading, clarity and detail. Same thing with respect to a "blast white" coin, wherein the only such technique basically available to that engraver was strike. You introduce just a spot of color to that coin, and your eye focuses right on that spot, I don't care where it is on the coin. You introduce multiple colors, or "monster" rainbows, and that coin is now so unlike that engraver's intent, it's pathetic. Still, don't read me wrong. I know a lot of young people who won't even watch a B&W movie, I don't care how critically-acclaimed it may be, unless it's colorized. Suffice it to say, I heartily embrace the notion that there's a real (and "legitimate") market out there for toned coins. I'm just trying to point out to y'all, these markets are distinctly different. You can never compare a toned coin to a blast white, or vice-versa. For a blast white, one of the things we're appreciating is the engraver's intent; and, our eyes are moving through that coin in the manner that engraver intended. By the time that coin takes on toning, forget about that, how the engraver intended you to feel...that's gone, forever. They're still killer coins, many of them...but, they're different. Y'all capice?
Personally, I like a coin with clean surfaces, no hairlines or signs of harsh treatment. For me, original means the coins looks the way it should for its age and condition. A VF coin with an even gunmetal grey surface with no dirt or dings or signs of a harsh cleaning is just fine. An old cleaning that has retoned is acceptable too if it looks good. Many AU coins look better than their more expensive MS counterparts. It's all very subjective and not always about Sheldon. If I'm comparing two slabbed coins with the same grade, I confess I'm attracted to the "look" more than I am figuring out which coin might grade slightly higher or lower if the Sheldon scale went down to tenths.
I like that. We're actually pretty close, here, in terms of tastes, as every coin is going to "age," and show it to one degree or another. :thumb:
And THAT is the point. Aging is natural, and with aging comes toning. And toning does not always mean color, in fact color is the exception rather the rule. The most common toning for silver is gunmetal grey. Or black & white if you prefer. Ya see, with a coin that is a 100 years old or more, for that matter even a coin that is 10 years old, being blast white is not natural. And it is definitely not original for the coin has been chemically treated to remove toning. And every single coin there is tones with age. And that is really the key, some may prefer blast white, but how can it ever be considered to be original when the coin has been chemically altered ? For I assure you, there is no Morgan dollar out there, not even 1, that is untoned unless it has been recently dipped. You may think it is, but if you were to compare it with a freshly minted silver coin you would find it is definitely not. It will, at the very least be some darker shade of grey than a freshly minted coin. So even lovers of "blast white" coins are in reality lovers of toned coins. They just don't know it.
Doug, I didn't say anything about "blast white," here, in the reply you just quoted and replied to. I rather said that in the former reply. And I think you know what I meant, there. I think you know I meant coins as they looked the minute after they were minted. Even if they were copper. Now, let me add some exceptions for "gunmetal grey" or otherwise even or uniform "shading." Those aren't as distracting as a spot of red, for example. Those, I consider, not as distracting from the engraver's intent. That engraver, again, is an artist, for the most part, using well-established techniques of art...those available to him...to convey a particular expression. When you see a B&W sketch by a master, for example, are you able to appreciate that a colorized version is an adulteration and hardly the same expression? I'm not asking whether you believe there's a market for the latter. In fact, I conceded, there's a market for colorized B&W movies, just as there's a market for toned coins. But color is one of the most powerful artistic techniques there is, if not the most powerful. The other, or second most powerful, is detail. In the case of a coin, the latter is brought out by a strong strike. But that's how that engraver, whether one is consciously aware of it or not, is controlling your eye-focus and eye-movement throughout that coin. Maybe you just think you like it, it's "eye appealing." I'm trying to tell you why, and that that's deliberative on the part of the engraver, if he's worth anything. That's what I want to see, what that engraver wanted me to see; that's my MS70, as I said. And all I'm saying about colored coins is that they change the artistic pattern or dynamic by introducing a technique foreign to that engraver at the time he engraved the coin. And, I do think a colored coin loses something for that. That's just a reflection of what I, personally, happen to appreciate in a coin. You have yours. The TPGs, obviously, have theirs. The next guy, who knows, may get off on that pedigree coin...
[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]Like this little part... "unnatural is either going to end up with a lower grade or not graded" it is true though...Toned ASE's are given a grade of MS66-MS67 [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
another complete post :thumb: even if does contain heresy lovers of blast white coins are not lovers of toned coins. there are different shades of white tsk tsk GD
