New Hadrian Alexandrian coin with "traditional" Egyptian theme

@Only a Poor Old Man, as another practicing Christian (granted, at closer to the opposite end of the spectrum from you),+ and with a Serious nod to @DonnaML's no less eloquent and incisive points (than yours), I'm wanting to think, along the same lines you do, that where the origins of Christianity are concerned, there's a valid distinction between syncretism per se, and the more benign forms of 'appropriation' that you describe.
...If anyone can find me one of these, Holler! This has been discussed elsewhere here. Except, there's a small AE of Arcadius, issued (for one) in Alexandria. In the reverse field, it has a staurogram; an adaptation of the Christian Chi-Rho monogram, but looking more like an Egyptian ankh. Yes, these were issued by other mints, but I can't not suspect that, to the largely native Christian population in Alexandria and elsewhere in Egypt, the similarity would have been unmistakable. Fast forward a half century: the eventual Coptic church in Egypt adopted the ankh (especially by way of its more abstract, mundane connotations as a symbol of life) as a version not only of the Chi-Rho sign, but of the cross. ...Kind of like how, to this day, the Egyptian Coptic word for God is 'Allah.' In both cases, whether visually or verbally, the primary dynamic is linguistic rather than theological per se.
+...Well, Why Not: I'm African Methodist Episcopal. A Methodist denomination originating in northeastern America in the late 18th century, among free Black people who got tired of the habitual segregation and other random abuse from the local Methodist church. --One great beauty of this tradition (and, thank you, in America, two centuries Gets to be a Tradition) is how it preserves more of the original, Anglican (...as such, Roman Catholic-inspired) liturgy than you're likely to find in a typical service in the more mainstream American Methodist denomination. ...Except, before COVID, the congregation I attended had a total of maybe half a dozen choirs --thank you, not at any one service-- and a Hammond organ (there are pipe organs, and there are Other electric organs; Then there are Hammonds), that someone could Play.
For a Hammond, you could listen to this:

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

@DonnaML , your Canopic jar coin is truly wonderful. One of these is HIGH on my want list going forward. Until then I’ll have to make due with the (embarrassingly few) Romanized types I have now


The Isis - Osiris Story
As a general comment to some of the discussion so far I am no Egyptologist by any means but even I know enough to know that some of the insinuations made in this thread are historically absurd. The Isis - Osiris story is deeply rooted in the context of early ancient Egyptian religion.

Osiris was tricked by Set into trying out a box made specifically to his dimensions (i.e. the first sarcophagus). He was locked inside by Set and sent down the Nile where he died and his sarcophagus came to rest in Lebanon where a great Cedar grew around it. Isis searched for him to retrieve his body and give him a proper burial. While she was searching the tree with Osiris in it was used as a column in a palace for the King of Lebanon. When Isis found Osiris’s body she had to negotiate for its return within the Cedar.

When she returned and gave Osiris a proper burial Set decided to cut up his body and scatter it out of spite. He threw his phallus into the Nile where it was devoured by a fish. The distraught Isis then spent years searching for and retrieving her husband’s body. The only piece she could not find was the phallus (dang fish). She fashioned a golden phallus for Osiris (she was no virgin!) and used her magic to resurrect Osiris (he becomes the first person resurrected from a mummy!). Her and Osiris then conceived Horus.

Isis and Horus do occasionally have to hide and flee from Set but eventually Horus grows up and defeats his Uncle Set. He loses an eye in the battle and does not kill Set as a concession to the fact that Maat can never truly vanquish chaos and Horus (and the Pharaoh) must be ever vigilant.

Some of the themes of this story that only make sense in an Egyptian context:

• Osiris is the archetype for the process of mummification and the afterlife. It is this story that forms the bases of the Pharaohs and then the entire Egyptian population thinking they can resurrect if they are properly buried on Egyptian soil. (Osiris was buried in Abydos which is where the first King’s tombs are).
• They story shows the need for both a Ba (the spirit / soul) and a complete Ka (ones form / body including phallus) in order to have an afterlife. Thus we get all the tombs, mortuary temples, pyramids and mummies.
  
• Egypt does not have large trees. The story about Isis returning with Cedars of Lebanon is a fun detail.
  
• Horus is the restorer of Maat and the archetype for the power and succession of the Pharaohs.

This story only makes sense in an Egyptian context with an Egyptian worldview. I see no link that is more than superficial with any of the biblical stories of Jesus. Jesus didn’t lose an eye while in an epic battle with his uncle...

You know you are my boy @Ryro (and always will be, brother), but I have to strongly disagree with your above conclusions.

I know many of us here have many different beliefs but my hope is that we can ALL at least believe in respect (including respect for each other’s beliefs). I am not sure what has happened to CT lately. It’s a bit concerning. (Edit to add: this comment is not directed as an accusation at Ryro so please don’t think it is, my friend. I’ve noticed an uptick in unfriendly behavior here lately from a number of newbies and regulars alike and I find it disappointing and distracting from the reasons I come here.)

 

What, no Three Wise Men there when Horus was born? Seriously, thanks for the explanation. I actually dug out my copy of the paperback version of Mythologies of the Ancient World, edited by Samuel Noah Kramer -- author of at least one book on Ancient Near Eastern History I've read -- and printed in the 1960s, to look through the lengthy discussion of Isis, Osiris, and Horus (see pp. 68-90) in the chapter on "Mythology of Ancient Egypt," by Rudolf Anthes, the then-Professor of Egyptology and Curator at the museum at the University of Pennsylvania. Remarkably, I couldn't find any of the stuff in that chart mentioned in there!

 

@Curtisimo, thank you Lots for your incisive insights.
...Yeah, maybe @TIF said this most recently, but after this last year (Just, Anyway), Most of us are starting to fray a little. Mercifully, it doesn't have to be an inexorable death-spiral.

 

@DonnaML actually when I was writing my response to @Ryro 's comment I had in mind to apologise directly to you for hijacking your thread, but to my shame I forgot to actually include it. So please accept my delayed apology. I didn't want to derail the thread further by commenting on that Horus chart, so thank you for pointing out the questionable aspects of it. And to get back on topic, one of the things that sadden me is that the Egyptians never had any coinage of their own before the Ptolemies. Coins with hieroglyphics on them would be really cool!

 

...Yessss--like how great it is to see runes on sceattas!!!! One can only wish.
On the other hand, for Pharaonic artefacts (shabtis, scarabs, amulets and beads), there are still surprisingly affordable options. @Alegandron and @DonnaML helped me out on that front.

 

@DonnaML......What a lovely coin!...Great reverse!...And thanks for the very informative write up, thoroughly enjoyed it.
Alexandrian coinage is an area I'll be collecting in this year due to my surprise gift of Emmets reference book so found this thread particularly interesting.
Here's one of mine...
Antoninus Pius, 138 - 161 AD
Billon Tetradrachm, Egypt, Alexandria Mint, 23mm, 11.94 grams
Obverse: Laureate, draped and cuirassed bust of Antoninus right.
Reverse: Nilus reclining left holding reed and cornucopia from which emerges Genius, crocodile below.
Emmerr 1413.13 // Dattari 2294 // Koln 1594 // K&G 35.426

 

@DonnaML
Some years before I got this lttle nome coin with a crocodile on rev. until I recognized that it was Sobek - the crocodile god!


https://www.cointalk.com/threads/sobek-the-egyptian-crocodile-god.351076/#post-3915271

Best regards

 

Wouldn’t want to be the victim here or accused of anything - so please post a coin to go along with your comment... seeing that this is a coin forum.

 

Christ forgive me, the parallel is HORUS the son of God Osiris. God bless us everyone.
But since Donna already asked me to leave in two different chats, goodbye for a while.

 

My mother, in her infinite wisdom, taught me to never discuss politics and religion. In a forum like this, it is too easy to get carried away and/or misunderstood. I do certain activities in my life for pure enjoyment and to step away from the pressures of life. Numismatics is one of those activities. I enjoy bowling as well, but when someone at the alley turns a discussion towards politics/religion, I just tune them out. I will do the same on this forum. We are all different, but we all have one thing in common here. We like ancient coins. I think we can build on that, eh?

 

How many in one day? What a loss to this forum. Sad.

 

I never asked you to leave, and never would. What in the world do you mean?

 

I don't think he means leaving the forum. At least I very much hope he doesn't. And I've never asked him to leave either the forum or this thread. You can look at everything I've written and won't find anything like that

 

I've posted plenty of coins in this thread. My thread, in case you forgot. I don't need to post another one to respond, very politely, to your comment that religion is a crutch people won't need in the future. Please don't be passive-aggressive.

 

Wow! What an amazing little coin. Interesting that there are at least two different Hadrian Year 11 coins from the Arsinoite Nome.

 

I will be taking a break as well. I have tried to keep this about coins but I have been accused of quite a few things over the last few hours that I find unpleasant. That is fine - no worries, no sympathy,... I've never, ever felt that I owned anything on this forum - threads included but I guess we have a new sheriff in town and the mods don't seem to mind ...and I'm tapping out... bye

 

I hate to see you leave, even temporarily. I've never been the one to change the subject from coins. And I'm being accused of plenty. Once again, it's remarkably unfair to portray me as a villain. Or as a would-be sheriff.