Question about grading standards for Proof Morgans

Insider, can you elaborate a bit on which and where are the hairlines ? And on this "subtle different directions" ?

I see some lines between Liberty's eye and the "E and "P"....and lots of others in the fields. But I have trouble sometimes differentiating cleaning lines (or cleaning hairlines) and lines from the dies.

 

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How would you have "raised" hairlines ? If we do have them, that implies die polishing and thus no cleaning/details grade ?

Anybody got a photo or two of die polish marks running in the same direction ?

So cut off hairlines -- different lengths ? Short lengths ? -- indicates cleaning/details ?

 

This loophole in NOT labeling Proof coins "Details/Cleaned" is something I wasn't aware of.

And since it's not a hard-and-fast rule, what's the excuse for leaving it off ? Does it have something to do with the limited number of Proofs vs. Business Strikes and the holders for Proofs as alluded to in Bowers' book ?

 

Since we keep referencing it....for us newbies/novices....hairlines are.....?

 

Is this really true ?

If it's very rare....but obviously cleaned....they're going to still straight-grade it ? Or do they give the BENEFIT of the doubt to the coin if it's not 100% cleaned ?

 

Can you elaborate ron this ? Hairlines from the dies ?

 

Reread the response, I think you misunderstood me. I was giving reasons why I thought they weren’t die polish lines.

I said they don’t look raised, but dug in - indicating they are hairlines, not die polish lines.

I think we are agreeing.

 

Hairlines are very thin, very shallow scratches that usually result from a coin or medal getting cleaned with a mild abrasive. A cotton ball can cause hairlines. They are usually in a pattern, either straight lines or a swirl. The photo OP Morgan Dollar offers you an excellent example.

Hairlines cannot come from dies; they are post mint damage. Lines that look similar can come from die polishing. Die polish marks are raised from the surface of the coin which distinguishes them from hairlines

 

I was hoping that you’d weigh in. This is really disappointing to me.

Shouldn’t scarce coins be treated with, if anything, a higher level of scrutiny? Or, at least, shouldn’t TPGs be consistent in their standards regardless of the scarcity?

 

technical or market grading consistency?

 

Were these proofs that are excessively hair lined always straight graded?
Or did they originally get a details grade by early ANA standards?

 

Mistakenly cleaned or negligently cleaned. Accidentally cleaned would be like "i was walking past that coin and tripped and accidentally cleaned it", makes no sense.

 

I mis-typed, sorry....I meant if there was not 100% CERTAINTY that it was cleaned.

Sorry, Doug.

 

That's what I thought too...just having finished re-reading Bowers' MORGAN RED BOOK, the theme he kept repeating was that back then "cleaning" wasn't meant to cheat or improve the coins appearance. They really thought it was important to do it once-in-a-while, like dusting a room today.

Some employee in charge of the Mint Cabinet at Treasury or the Mint even once polished the Proof and other rare coins in a display cabinet !

I know, I found that hard to believe, too !!

 

Not an expert on those coins by any means...but if they were to consider that corrosion a form of unpreventable chemical process -- sort of like "bad toning" -- wouldn't that explain it ?

Not saying I agree with it, but if something happens to a coin that is no fault of a person's, that might explain the leniency.

Again, not saying I agree, so please don't attack me.

 

Just want to say to you that in addition to all the general knowledge I have learned from CT...I really appreciate you hammering that 2004 year of deliniation on the grading standards, GD.

You really drilled it home and I learned alot about the timeline. Thanks !

 

Well, by accidental I mean like one time some new employee was not aware you didn't touch/clean the coins and he saw that some dust or stuff must have been on the coins...and he knew that silver dinnerware benefitted from polishing....so he took the initiative and....well, you know the rest.

This actually reminds me of my 1st HDTV. I was still living at home at the time and my mother cleaned the entire house including my room. You were NEVER supposed to clean the TV screen with Windex or other cleaners -- just approved dust removers -- and I told my mother that....DON'T CLEAN THE SCREEN..DON'T EVEN CLEAN THE OUTSIDE FRAME OR THE TV STAND...I'LL CLEAN IT MYSELF.

Even hung a DO NOT CLEAN reminder on paper and taped it over the TV so she'd remember when I was at work.

I mentioned it last night to her because we just bought my father a new HDTV for upstairs (Mom has the bedroom TV ) and I reminded her about it and she tells me "I know, I remember from your TV with your stupid note telling me not to get within 3 feet of the TV...."