Why didn't the medieval Europe use bronze and chunky silver coins?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by JayAg47, Jan 8, 2021.

  1. JayAg47

    JayAg47 Well-Known Member

    So my understanding is that the lack of tetradrachm-like silver coins was because silver became scarcer, and so the coins became tiny and razor thin. But why didn't they mint more bronze coins?
     
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  3. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    Bronze coins were already becoming valueless in the late Roman period. I’m admittedly spotty on the history of the transition, and I’m sure someone else can fill in the gaps, but I believe it was Charlemagne who initiated a coinage reform basing the monetary system off of silver. There were some small bronze coins before this (the Northumbrian stycas come to mind), but I’m not sure how many.

    having said that, bronze coins would be issued in some parts of medieval Europe - probably as a result of their interactions with the Byzantines
    Med-14-INCal-1098-Roger I-TFol-Mileto-3789.jpg Norman Italy - Calabria
    Roger I, r. 1072-1101 (1098-1101)
    Mileto Mint, AE Trifollaro, 28.04 mm x 8.3 grams
    Obv.: ROG [ERVS] COME +S. Roger, mounted left wearing Norman helm, holding kite shield and striped banner
    Rev.: + MARIA [MATE]R DNI (’N’ retrograde). Enthroned nimbate Virgin Mary holding on lap Christ child, nimbate and in swaddling clothes right
    Ref.: NCKS 131var., MEC 14.93, De Wit 3789
     
  4. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Most bronze coins require a faith (real or demanded) in the value of the money while silver coins carry their own worth whoever's face is on them. We are running out of people who have memories of spending silver coins. I was a senior in high school when the US dropped silver. My father was that age when they dropped gold. My 18 year old grandson hardly ever touches a coin or paper money since his life is mostly virtual just like his money. Does anyone have experience with the grocery stores that sense what you are carrying out and charges your account without scanning (with or without a clerk being involved)? Who remembers when credit cards used raised letters to transfer account information? Magnetic strips? Having to insert a card rather than taping, waving or just carrying it? The first step in this was when an authority started marking metal to certify it as money that did not have to be assayed to determine its value. Thin silver is a lot easier to strike than chunky bronze and looks bigger than a thick pellet/chunk.

    The thing that grates on me is that the US decided in 1856 that the half cent was unnecessary but a dollar now won't buy more than a cent did then. We still make coins. I remember penny candy; the dollar menu is a loss leader in some cases. Money just is not what it was when our collectable coins were made.
     
  5. JayAg47

    JayAg47 Well-Known Member

    The exact reason why humans will move past the need for coins/paper notes by the end of this century! if our money is based on silver/gold then there's a reason to use them in physical form, however a base metal/paper bill can be produced at will, thus making it worth less each time we make more. This is why virtual currency comes in handy, with the ability to pay in the fractions, whenever and wherever. In the future governments will only make ceremonial/bullion issue of coins, while the norm will be cards and crypto!
     
  6. ambr0zie

    ambr0zie Dacian Taraboste

    Chunky(ish) silver coins were still minted. Here is my 1/4 Ecu, Henri III, 1583
    upload_2021-1-8_15-59-58.png

    30 mm so quite big and almost 10 g - light for its size but not extremely thin.
     
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  7. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Not what I'd call medieval. Think of all the thalers already being minted by then.
     
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  8. ambr0zie

    ambr0zie Dacian Taraboste

    Some of them even from my geographical area but out of my budget
    upload_2021-1-8_17-22-20.png

    Why would you say it's not medieval? style, or...?
     
  9. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

  10. jamesicus

    jamesicus Well-Known Member


    Like this very large Charles II (1660-1685) First year (1662) milled silver crown:

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Diameter: 40mm (initial issue large flan) Weight: 29.57gm

    Obverse depiction: Draped laureate bust with Rose below (minted using native silver from western Britain).
    Inscription: CAROLVS II DEI GRA
    (Charles the second by the Grace of God)

    Reverse depiction: Four crowned shields, cruciform, the top bearing the arms of England and France quartered, the right bearing the arms of Scotland, the bottom bearing the arms of England and France quartered and the left bearing the arms of Ireland. In the angles formed by adjoining shields are two intertwined C's. At the center is the Star of the Garter.

    Inscription: MAG BR FRA ET HIB REX 1662
    (King of Great Britain, France and Ireland)

    Edge Inscription: * + * DECVS ET TVTAMEN
    (An Ornament and a Safeguard).
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2021
  11. svessien

    svessien Senior Member

    I think this is a symptom of how all- encompassing state power has become. Some find this good, others find it frightening. Again, it comes down to trust.

    In my area of Northern Europe, copper was quite plentiful (a copper mine nearby even supplied the Statue of Liberty with copper). Silver, however, was as absent as a central government. I’m sure copper was used to barter, but I can understand the lack of trust in anything but bullion value when it comes to bronze and copper, for the part of the vikings.
     
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  12. JayAg47

    JayAg47 Well-Known Member

    My guess is the newer minting process of milling as opposed to the traditional hammering!
     
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  13. scottishmoney

    scottishmoney Buh bye

    1daler.jpg 2daler.jpg swedish4daler1731.jpg

    Large, clunky and heavy enough that bank robbers didn't take them and after they were demonetized in the 1770s they were used as ship's ballasts - the above three pieces didn't though - most examples known today are salvage from the shipwreck of the "Nicobar" that sank off of South Africa in 1781. Non-Nicobar examples like the above are fairly scarce.
     
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  14. svessien

    svessien Senior Member

    It’s rather the date. I’m no medievalist (at least yet) , but I suspect they don’t count coins minted after the 15th century as medieval.
    During the 13th and 14th century, the silver Gros and other silver coins larger than the denier/penny came into circulation.
    Here’s a «Carlin» from Rober D’Anjou. Not sure if I would call it «chunky», as it’s quite thin, but it has a broad flan:
    Robert DÁnjou.jpg
    France, Provence. Robert of Anjou (1309-1343). Carlin.

    Obverse: + ROBЄRTUS DЄI GRA IЄRL ЄT SICIL RЄX. Robert seated facing on leonine throne, holding lis-tipped sceptre and orb.
    Reverse: + ҺOҺOR RЄGIS IUDICIU DILIGIT. Cross fleurée, with lis in each angle.

    Reference: Duplessey 1446; Boudeau 832.

    Diameter: 26 mm. Weight: 3.69 g. Condition: Very fine.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2021
  15. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    Hoo-boy. The dating discussion again. Okay, traditionally, the Middle Ages “ends” around 1450-1500 A.D. In numismatics, some (myself included) just lump in all hammered coins as ‘medieval’ because of the similar technology in use, but you would be laughed at in a room full of historians if you attempted to claim the 17th century as ‘medieval’ (despite all of the arguments around how periodization is a man-made construct, blah blah blah).

    in terms of the development of state power and centralized governments that really takes hold in the 16th century, perhaps it’s no surprise that they are able to issue larger silver coins for wide-spread commerce, as opposed to the more localized “feudal” issues of the historical Middle Ages.

    pin terms of ‘chunky silver,’ perhaps it’s better to consider the context of what coins looked like when they started minting bigger coins. Here’s a comparison of the first ‘big silver’ (grosso) to be minted in Venice next to the coinage that it was already in circulation:
    7D1BC7B5-D082-4049-9F7F-07EADFD8C995.jpeg
    and here is an attempt at a side image to show the Grosso is thicker (although the piccolo on the left is concave, so it is actually hard to tell...)
    A3A8429E-2556-4A82-9B5C-25781430EE92.jpeg

    A few more examples - England:
    83C549EA-649F-4481-853D-B20C9E8A3DB9.jpeg

    Metz:
    82725A9B-0EE8-4DD0-9798-DB1D67EE5F11.jpeg
     
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  16. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    Also, it’s not too long after they start minting larger silver coins that gold starts flooding in from Hungary and then Africa. There’s little need to produce really big silver coins when an abundance of gold becomes available
     
  17. ambr0zie

    ambr0zie Dacian Taraboste

    Ah OK. I am no expert in Middle Age and I know there isn't a clear definition of the period is covers but I personally consider Middle age between the fall of Western Roman Empire and the French Revolution.
     
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  18. Archeocultura

    Archeocultura Well-Known Member

    Nearly all of Europe used silver coins in the Middle Ages; small denominations were not only small in size, but also low in silver content. In this way they avoided the use of copper. In the seventeenth century Sweden had a great lack of silver and decided to issue instead copper plates of a massive weight with several coinlike stamps on it - extremely impractical. As far as my knowledge goes, King Charles the fifth of Spain introduced small copper coins in the mid-sixteenth century. At about the same time, some cities also issued copper bracteates to serve as change. As prosperity grew and trade flourished (v.v.) the need for gold and heavy silver was felt. In Central Europe new silver mines were discovered (Joachimstal in Bohemia) and from that last part of the name 'Tal' (=valley) the large silver coins were named 'Taler' which name was taken over and even ended up as 'Dollar' . The reason silver was abolished as metal for coins lay in the greater-than-facevalue of the silver in the late fifties. All countries had left their 'golden standards' and money had become 'fiduciary' - you had to believe the bank or the government was good for it.

    Frans
     
  19. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    What we see today is far from unprecedented. My collecting experience goes back to the Imperial Romans. The denarius was a thick silver coin during the days of the republic and the first couple of centuries after the emperors took charge. During that time it was quietly debased, but change was not easily detected for most people.

    By the 200s the denarius was being replaced by the autoninianus, which was worth two denarii. It was rapidly being debased from a coin with some silver, to a silver wash to and all bronze coin. Diocletian tried to fix things with the argenteus but that didn’t last for too long.

    In Great Britain, the penny was silver coin, which eventually because one of the most reliable silver coins in Europe, but it was made smaller and debased after a while. It finally became a bronze coin that get smaller and smaller.

    The gold coins were last to suffer debasement in both Rome and England. The reason was they were the currency of the nobility and the wealthy. The government had to protect their interests to retain power.

    Today our money isn’t even paper any more. It is a series of computer based accounts that are moved from entity to another. The Federal Reserve now creates money by buying bonds from the Federal Government. The gold ads talk about the government “printing money on a wholesale basis” but it isn’t really printing it anymore. It is just creating it.

    Is all of this bad? Not necessarily. As long as the money supply grows with the size of the economy, there is no problem. Requiring it to be tied to precious metals only limits that supply, and that is not necessarily a good thing. An economy can be choked by a liquidity crisis as well, which happened during the Panic of 1893. The free silver advocates were partially right. The economy could have used more money. The trouble was they didn’t put any limits upon how much they wanted to create.

    The problem is setting the money supply at the right level. It’s not what the money is made of.

    Economists call belief that the value of money is established by the value of the metal that is in it, "the commodity theory of money." It is has been disproven many times in history, but many people continue to believe in it. When was the last time you spent an American Silver Eagle, which as "One Dollar" struck on it, as a dollar? You didn't because it's worth more like $20. Increasing the melt value of the coinage would only drive it out of circulation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2021
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  20. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    I would say that it runs from the fall of the Roman Empire to about 1500 to 1600 depending upon where you were in the world.

    *Revised to move both dates back a century.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2021
  21. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    The date (1583) and everything associated with it in European society. Read what @FitzNigel wrote. The traditional end of the European "Middle Ages" is in the mid- to late-15th century (1400s), generally considered the Late Middle Ages. The line is not completely arbitrary, although of course things changed at different times and in different ways in different parts of Europe. In Italy, the Renaissance was already in full flower by 1500. After all, Leonardo was born in 1452 and Michelangelo in 1475. The book "The Waning of the Middle Ages" by the Dutch historian Johan Huizinga was published in 1914 (I read it in college, somewhat later than that!), but as far as I know it's still considered an important book that's worth reading. It's largely about the 1300s and 1400s if I remember correctly.

    In general, 1500 is considered the beginning of the "Early Modern" period (der frühen Neuzeit in German, I believe). Think of everything that had already happened or begun by the time your coin was minted in 1583. The Reformation. The beginning of the Counter-Reformation almost 40 years earlier. The Renaissance. Machiavelli's "The Prince," written 70 years earlier. The decline of feudalism and the rise of centralized states and royal power. The "discovery" and exploitation of the New World. The expulsion of the Jews from France and Spain and many major cities in German-speaking lands. In England, the break with Rome. The Elizabethan Age. Shakespeare! Nobody would characterize any of that as "medieval."

    And certainly by 1583 milled coinage was well-established in Continental Europe, as was large silver coinage like the thaler or taler. England was somewhat behind: despite some experiments with milled coinage in 1561 during Elizabeth's reign, it wasn't really established in England until the Frenchman Nicholas Briot joined the Mint as chief engraver in 1628 during the reign of Charles I. See http://www.kenelks.co.uk/coins/earlymilled/earlymilled.htm#.

    And, hey, I can trace my own ancestry, generation by generation, back to my 11th great-grandfather Joseph d'Alschwyl, born ca. 1540 and died in 1610, a physician who worked in Basel and resided in Allschwil (in Switzerland southwest of Basel on the border with Alsace) from 1567, under the protection of Bishops Melchior de Lichtenfels and Jacques-Christophe Blarer de Wartensee. One of the first Jews with permission to work in Basel.* He certainly wasn't medieval!

    So that's why I don't consider a French silver coin minted in 1583 to be medieval.

    * See Gunter Böll, Dokumente zur Geschichte der Juden in Vorderösterreich und im Fürstbistum Basel (1526-1578), in 115 Zeitschrift des Breisgau-Geschichtsvereins "Schau-ins-Land" (1996), pp. 19-44 at p. 43 n. 62 (Joseph in Allschwill from 1567); see also Achilles Nordmann, Über den Judenfriedhof in Zwingen und Judenniederlassungen im Fürstbistum Basel, in Basler Zeitschrift für Geschichte und Altertumskunde , Vol. 6 (Basel, 1907) (available on Google Books), pp. 120-151 at pp. 140-141.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2021
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