An odd “1806 Great Britain Penny”

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by Coinsandmedals, Dec 11, 2020.

  1. Coinsandmedals

    Coinsandmedals Well-Known Member

    I have been slowly building a “black cabinet” of contemporary counterfeit Soho pieces over the last year or so, and I just acquired an odd example that I am not sure how to classify. The suspect piece is an 1806 Great Britain Penny with all of the proper specifications (e.g., weight, diameter, & thickness); however, the details are mushy. The edge graining is also irregular, shallow, and incomplete. Adding to the puzzle, this coin is uncirculated, and some of the original red lustre remains. It makes little sense to produce a counterfeit of the proper weight, thickness, and diameter. I can’t help but wonder if this coin was struck with severally deteriorated dies or perhaps an improperly annealed blank. The pictures depict the edge graining in relation to both the obverse and reverse.

    1806 Penny Contemp Counter Edge Obv.- Cropped.jpg 1806 Penny Contemp Counter Edge Rev. - Cropped.jpg


    I have included the specifications below with the proper numbers listed by Peck in parentheses.

    Diameter: 34.1 mm (34mm)

    Thickness: 3 mm (3 mm)

    Weight: 293.2 grains (291.6 grains)

    I am curious to see what other members have to say. Specially @robp, I would appreciate any feedback you may have.
     
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  3. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

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  4. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Your coin is heavily whizzed! :(
     
  5. Coinsandmedals

    Coinsandmedals Well-Known Member

    Most of the "late Soho" strikes are identifiable using the diagnostics provided by Peck. These were almost exclusively proof strikes and are of much higher quality than the business strike examples. Here is an example of a "late Soho" penny from my collection.

    1806 Great Britain Bronzed Proof Penny P-1326 PCGS PR-63BN Side by Side.jpg

    Likewise, the Taylor restrikes are mostly proof quality, and Peck only records examples with a plain edge for the 1806 Penny. Occasionally you will encounter a Taylor Restrike that presents more as a business strike than a proof. The 1807 restrike "proof" Farthings (i.e., P-1403), which were struck using retouched business dies are a good example of this. Luckily the plain edge makes these easy to distinguish between their business strike counterparts struck at the Soho Mint.

    1403.jpg
     
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  6. Coinsandmedals

    Coinsandmedals Well-Known Member

    That is certainly a simpler explanation that I failed to consider. :) Although it does not explain the edge graining.
     
  7. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    "Edge Graining?" AFAIK the edges of these coins should have diagonal grooves. Often the edges of whizzed coins are also whizzed.
     
  8. Coinsandmedals

    Coinsandmedals Well-Known Member

    Yes, these coins do have a grooved edge. Peck refers to this as "grained, in a deep groove". I am not sure how whizzing could explain what is occurring on the edge at 1 o'clock (if viewing the obverse picture). There is excess metal in that area filling the groove.
     
  9. The Eidolon

    The Eidolon Well-Known Member

    "It makes little sense to produce a counterfeit of the proper weight, thickness, and diameter."

    I can't vouch for the authenticity or not, but I could attempt to provide a motivation. The 1797 cartwheel pennies were an attempt to make a "full bodied" copper coin, in which they contained about an penny's worth of copper. All of the later ones were much lighter, and were produced at a profit on the materials. I believe the weight dropped from 28.35 g for the 1797 to 18.9 g for the 1806-08 series. So even a full weight counterfeit could have been produced at a significant profit.

    Acting against this, the Napoleonic Wars greatly increased the price of copper as it was in important material for copper sheathing of ships to protect them from barnacles. The price rise was one of the reasons the 1797 pennies and twopence didn't circulate for long--they were worth more as melt. I don't know the exact copper price of copper in the UK in 1806 (or if the coin was actually made in 1806, for that matter). But I'm pretty sure the mint was making a profit on the materials for the copper coinage by 1806, so so potentially could counterfeiters.

    My guess is contemporary counterfeit.
     
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  10. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    The Eidolon, posted: "It makes little sense to produce a counterfeit of the proper weight, thickness, and diameter..."

    "I believe the weight dropped from 28.35 g for the 1797 to 18.9 g for the 1806-08 series. So even a full weight counterfeit could have been produced at a significant profit. My guess is contemporary counterfeit."

    o_O Based on what? The 18.9 weight is correct for the issue.
     
  11. The Eidolon

    The Eidolon Well-Known Member

    Based on the 1797 penny, which I believe was the first official copper penny.
    If the 1797 was full-bodied, anything lighter could have been produced at a profit on the materials, whether official or contemporary counterfeit.
     
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  12. robp

    robp Well-Known Member

    The surfaces are pickled. It's been in an acidic environment that was probably quite wet for a period to allow continuous chemical attack. It looks like overall corrosion because the letters are thinner as well as the field damage. If you dissolve away a finite amount of metal, say 0.5mm off all surfaces, that means it not only comes off the field or high points of the relief facing the viewer, but the sides of that relief detail too. Consequently the letters will get thinner and thinner as more metal is removed. The A in the reverse legend looks to have suffered badly.

    I'm further convinced this is the reason because it looks like there is a shadow depression beside the letters on the reverse. You often see this effect on environmentally damaged coins. Although I've not seen any papers on this, I think it is due to the creation of micro fissures in the metal fabric when the coin is struck because of metal flow in creating the relief detail. These in turn would allow the ingress of any corrosive substance leading to an area with deeper metal loss.
     
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  13. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    The Eidolon, posted: "Based on the 1797 penny, which I believe was the first official copper penny. If the 1797 was full-bodied, anything lighter could have been produced at a profit on the materials, whether official or contemporary counterfeit."

    o_O :arghh::arghh: Well, with that kind of :wacky: thinking, I guess that every coin denomination from every country, in every era from the birth of coinage that exists which was officially minted by a government with a different weight standard from when it was first issued IS AN OFFICIAL COUNTERFEI! Unfortunately, you'll probably get lots of :bucktooth: agreement.


    :angelic: Thanks for this well thought out and interesting opinion:

    robp, posted: "The surfaces are pickled. [With all due respect :angelic:, this is :angelic: just not true. :angelic: Its surface has been MECHANICALLY ALTERED not chemically altered - pickled.] It's been in an acidic environment that was probably quite wet for a period to allow continuous chemical attack. It looks like overall corrosion because the letters are thinner as well as the field damage. [:angelic: Corrosion does not look like this. :angelic: Perhaps you have another example of this type of corrosion.] If you dissolve away a finite amount of metal, say 0.5mm off all surfaces, that means it not only comes off the field or high points of the relief facing the viewer, but the sides of that relief detail too. Consequently the letters will get thinner and thinner as more metal is removed. The A in the reverse legend looks to have suffered badly.

    I'm further convinced this is the reason because it looks like there is a shadow depression beside the letters on the reverse. [BINGO! It appears you have swerved into one of the obvious characteristics of a heavily whizzed coin.]You often see this effect on environmentally damaged coins. [:angelic: Really, perhaps you have an example. I'll be the first to say I :blackeye::bucktooth: have a lot to learn.:angelic:] Although I've not seen any papers on this, I think it is due to the creation of micro fissures in the metal fabric when the coin is struck because of metal flow in creating the relief detail. These in turn would allow the ingress of any corrosive substance leading to an area with deeper metal loss."
     
  14. Coinsandmedals

    Coinsandmedals Well-Known Member

    You have missed the point here. @The Eidolon is suggesting that "others" (i.e., not mint officials) may have sourced their copper from the heavier 1797 issues to strike counterfeits. This is plausible given that similar operations were already in full swing throughout England for centuries. There is nothing in their response that implies that any coin struck at the Soho Mint with reduced weight is counterfeit. You have adequately highlighted the ridiculousness of such a claim.
     
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  15. Coinsandmedals

    Coinsandmedals Well-Known Member

    @robp thank you for your thoughtful and detailed response. I am away for the weekend, but once I get back, I will inspect the coin in hand compared to your notes. I appreciate all the comments so far. I learn something new every day!
     
  16. mrbadexample

    mrbadexample Well-Known Member

    My first thought was rusty dies but the pickling explanation given works for me. :)
     
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  17. robp

    robp Well-Known Member

    Looking at it, there is a question about its authenticity. Where are the brooch jewels, or are traces visible? The circle where they would normally be is abnormal, but there might be traces of jewels. The shadows and limited size of picture confuse things a bit here. Also is it a full K on the truncation? A facing, unreflected view of the whole edge would be helpful to see exactly what we are looking at.

    If the weight is right, then a counterfeit makes no sense, but doesn't exclude a later concoction.
     
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  18. Bill in Burl

    Bill in Burl Collector

    From when I have looked this topic up before in my references, 1797 was the last year the pennies and halfpennies(some halfpennies from 1799 were heavy as well) were initially minted with the value of the copper equal to the value of the coin monetarily. The price of copper went up, so the cost of making the coin with that much copper was losing money for the mint. So they went to a new design after 1797, making them much lighter. In this changing environment, many copies and forgeries came into being. That's the way that I remember it.
     
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  19. Coinsandmedals

    Coinsandmedals Well-Known Member

    @robp I will take additional pictures of the specified areas when we return from our weekend trip. How would you suggest capturing the edge?
     
  20. The Eidolon

    The Eidolon Well-Known Member

    Well, I dug around and found my well-worn 1806 penny. Here are some photos in case showing how the lettering tends to wear might be useful. Edge has a band of diagonal grooves, slightly tilted (towards the reverse on left side, toward the obverse on right side). Mine weighs at 17.9 g, though I haven't calibrated the scale.

    ob.jpg rev.jpg edge.jpg

    After looking more closely, I think the original coin is probably real rather than a contemporary counterfeit. I wonder if the text wore down a bit and then it was polished or treated to restore an artificial luster, as others have suggested.
     
  21. robp

    robp Well-Known Member

    Put it on edge on a scanner or take close up pictures as normal. It's the mix of face and edge as posted above I find confusing.
     
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