Brexit and ancient coin trade - Implications

While I am putting together a list of the 10 most notable coins purchased during this tumultuous year, one event is closing in fast - the end of the transitional period for Brexit. This year, 2020, was supposed to be the transitional year that the UK, still trading with the EU under the pre-Brexit agreement, was to lead to some kind of deal or agreement to move forward, now that the UK formally has left the EU (this actually occurred on January 1, 2020).

Well, not much progress has been made, so there is a very real chance that the much delayed "hard" Brexit could occur on midnight, December 31, 2020. Even if a "deal" is reached, it is hard to sort out all of the implications and impacts that this separation is going to have in the long term - quite a muddle.

One question that I have is the impact that Brexit with have, deal or no deal, on business relationships between UK coin firms and their EU partners or competitors. I know that some UK firms have arrangements with EU firms to auction or sell on another's coins. I assume this is being done through arrangements under the EU umbrella. What happens when the UK is no longer part of this umbrella, as it will on January 1, 2021? Will there be import duties imposed by the EU now that the UK is outside the Union, and vice versa? Will UK numismatic firms locate to the continent?

From the EU perspective, there is certainly no incentive to grant the UK any major concessions - that could lead other members to leave the Union. Besides, as the old American Express ad went, "membership has its privileges".

So, with the witching hour a few weeks away, what is the future the coin trade in the UK and the EU, important sources for coin collectors of all stripes.

Any thoughts?

 

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With Johnson in charge, who knows what will transpire. Apparently his agreed deal was 'oven ready', or at least that was the phrase he repeated endlessly during the election, and yet shortly afterwards it seems he 'discovered' that the deal suddenly was not 'oven ready'. That said, I can see an extension to the transitional period on the cards. What happens after? Who knows.

[edited]

 

Assuming we leave with no deal, then imports of coins will attract 5% import VAT just as they do now for items from US or any other country outside the EU. That will not have much effect in my position as I already factor this in when buying.

For countries within the EU, they will have their own individual rates for imports as the imposition of duties and taxes is not a universal number. e.g. the UK has always had 0% VAT on books, whereas other countries impose VAT on books.

For products that have VAT on them, an export from the UK will be VAT exempt, just as it currently is to all non-EU destinations, with local taxes imposed on arrival. Previously it was necessary to charge VAT on supplies to another EU country with VAT deemed paid in full at source and accounted for in your VAT return. Export purchases could therefore potentially be cheaper for the buyer once the VAT element is removed, but VAT will still be charged further down the line. It's really an accounting issue and should only have a marginal financial effect.

I just wish they would get on with it, so we can get on with our respective lives. The world won't end with no deal.

 

UK is apparently reevaluating what constitutes treasure. Could be all sorts changes in the pipeline.

 

I have followed Brexit all along. The EU is going out of their way to "punish" the UK for daring to leave. Its all about fear. The EU, if the UK can show they can leave a prosper, would likely encourage others who also chafe at Brussels overreaching into their lives. So, Brussels is responding by making Brexit the worst possible outcome.

I hope you thrive and shove it in Brussel's face. I am always in favor of liberty and hate bullies, two reasons to hate the bureaucrats in Brussels.

 

Thank you. I don't think Brussels has woken up to the fact that they don't own us any more.

 

While things are quickly becoming political when it comes to Brexit, I still want to say something about it. A country leaving the Union must realize that it cannot negotiate a deal that will bring the same benefits as membership of the Union, without any obligations and potential disadvantages.

 

For those of you living in the UK, do you have to pay any duty when you receive a coin from a US dealer? I've occasionally shipped to UK customers using a parcel with customs slip. Does it matter if I declare it as a gift or merchandise? Does it matter whether I call the contents an ancient coin or collector token, and does it matter what I valuate the contents? And would Brexit entail any changes to duty on coins (or lack thereof)?

 

My employer is based in Northern Ireland, so I work with people who have a lot at stake here. I came across this story just this morning, and found it somewhat alarming:

Checks on goods crossing Irish Sea to start from 1 January

I'd be concerned about coins, I guess, but more concerned about food...

 

@johnanthony It depends upon the declared value. Anything over about $15 can be nabbed by customs.

 

Hmmm... I believe I will pursue a new career in British Customs!

 

Like Pishpash said, anything over $15 I think. From my understanding, ancient coins from the US are hit with a 5% VAT and a processing fee from Royal Mail. I would expect that to be what is charged for coins from the EU shortly.

The thing that concerns me slightly is not the charges, but the fact that so many more things are going to be going through customs. I have a coin from the US which left America last Monday, and they weren't competent enough to scan it on arrival, so now I'm sitting in the dark about what's going on with it. It makes me a little nervous considering the fact that, as far as I can tell, it's one of only a few in existence. If it's like this now, what will it be like next month when the volume going through customs is multiplied massively?

With regards to declaring value, I think the only solution is to do everything exactly as it should be done, so that if something goes wrong you aren't stuck being unable to make an insurance claim.

 

I think this is true to an extent, and I don't claim to be an expert so I could be wrong, but I think the main problem right now is almost entirely down to the problems with the Northern Ireland border, and given the history of the region and the Good Friday agreement, I just can't see what the solution is.

With that as a starting point, when you add in the clear resistance from Brussels along the way, and the embarrassing lack of preparation on the part of David Davis and his successors, and the reduction of the matter down to small meaningless catchphrases that don't ever engage with the problem during the last election campaign here in the UK, you end up with what we have now.

I am concerned about what is going to happen in the coming few months behind closed doors while the world is rightly distracted by current events.

I have no real strong feelings one way or the other with regards to Brexit, I just want whatever has been decided to be competently, transparently and honestly passed through with as little pain as is possible for all involved.

Edit: also, thanks to the mod who edited my first post which was a little strong due to my irritation at the recent events. I hope this is suitable.

 

No doubt there has to be disadvantages. It simply appears from this side of the pond that the EU is going out of its way to try to enforce MAXIMUM damage to the UK lest there would be others contemplate similar actions.

I believe the people of the UK simply reacted to my impression of the EU, that being why aren't the PEOPLE allowed to make their choices. It appears much of what the EU does is done from politicians appointing representatives, who then oversee bureaucrats who make daily decisions that change people's lives. One would think such decisions would have to be made by the people, or at least the politicians overseeing Brussels should be directly elected. It appears to be constructed specifically to NOT allow the population to have a say, which is what I believe UK voters were saying. Every year it appears less and less democratic what is evolving there.

 

If I have to pay Irish VAT on coins from Naville & Roma, I will be buying less from them as I will have 23% more to pay (currently reduced to 21%, but will go back up at the end of Feb. 2021).

So, more from EU-based dealers

ATB,
Aidan.

 

Norway and Switzerland have been doing fine outside the EU. I cheered for the Brits when they decided to go their own way. Challenges with this should be expected, but I have a strong belief in the resilient British people, and I hope you will manage this well.

 

Interesting post and answers, thanks everyone. Happy holidays

 

Seems to me this is just one of many Brexits - throughout history - and in retrospect they mostly seem productive enough

England apparently got its coin weights (Troy and Sterling) in connection with the hard Brexit of 790-792

https://www.academia.edu/42117700/The_Origin_of_English_Troy_Weight_Solved

The Brexit of 1534 seems to me a largely financial (and personal) matter, but it paved the way for the a hugely important Anglican turn to scientific objectivity under Francis Bacon - in 1620.

2020 is almost over and yet hardly anyone seems to have remembered the 400th anniversary of Novum Organum. But then, it seems most UK academics voted against Brexit too. Perhaps the matters are linked? I think we should be told......

 

I wonder what will happen with the arrangements that UK numismatic firms have with their EU partners, and how EU collectors who consign coins for auction to UK firms. If tariffs are imposed on goods crossing the borders between the EU and the UK, and those goods include coins, I'd imagine there would be a drop in consignments to UK firms, to the benefit of firms in the EU.

One more thought - the EU was founded on the principle of creating a body of European countries, including the UK, that would provide a forum to resolve divisions and conflicts among member states before they become heated, leading to war. It has been a few generations since the world witnessed the savagery and utter horrors of World War II.

Yes, the EU does have its internal problems. Any organization has flaws and internal squabbles. Such it is with human affairs. However, I think it is vitally important that efforts to promote dialogue, understanding and consensus are the way to a more equitable and secure future, for ourselves and generations to come. Moderating bodies such as the EU are more important than ever in this time of rising nationalism and conflicts around the world.

 

Scotland and Ireland including Northern Ireland have every reason to want to stay in the EU. They both voted "remain". In Ireland the peace dividend from the 1998 Good Friday Agreement resulted in an open border that facilitates greater trade and less political tension.

If England wants to go it alone, go. But don't rip up Irish peace and pull the Scots along. First Minister Nicola Sturgeon is suggesting that Scottish independence could and should come up for a vote again.