Help needed with an English Penny

Hi everyone.
English medieval coins are quite far from my expertise. So I need help on this one: Is it Edward I or Edward II? And, if anyone knows, how on earth do you spot the difference?

 

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Edwards are tough, but others more knowledgeable than I can correct me. I believe this is Edward I, as the pellet beginning the inscription only happens in one type belonging to him (which is the reason I bought my Edward I of the same type):
England
Edward I, r. 1272-1307 (1279-1307)
London Mint, AR New Coinage Penny class 4d, 20.79mm x 1.37 grams
Obv.: .✚ ºEDW R' ANGL DNS HyB. Bust facing, full drapery, crown with small nick between dexter jewel and side fleur
Rev.: ºCIVI | TAS | LON | DON, long cross quartering outer legends with three pellets in each quarter
Ref.: North 1026, SCBC 1397, De Witt 3243

 

Thank you! Was hoping for Edward II, so I believe you are correct!

 

Yea, Edward II is tough to track down. I bought this coin at a show that was advertised as Edward II - I doubted it, but the price was low enough (because of the holes) I figured it was worth a chance. The strike was nice regardless - but it was Edward I again:
England
Edward I, r. 1272-1307 (1280)
London Mint, AR New Coinage Penny class 2b, 20.72 mm x 1.5 grams
Obv.: ✚EDW R’ ANGL DNS HYB, Crowned bust facing, high neck, small narrow face, drapery formed of two wedges
Rev.: CIVI | TAS | LON | DON, Long cross pattée with three pellets in each angle
Ref.: North 1015, SCBC 1386, De Wit 3236

 

calling @lordmarcovan .... I think he has a very nice 1 of these.

 

Hi, @svessien, there are a total of ten major classes for Edward I, many of which have as many as four subclasses. It's kind of crazy, but each of the major ones really does date the issue within a couple of specific years of the reign. I dimly recall the Edward IIs being particularly hard to distinguish from late Edward Is. There are people here who know this stuff a lot better than I do. But it has to do with both little, very intentional distinguishing points (as they say about books), and broader evolution in the style of the portrait. ...With lots of overlap; variations of the crown one seemingly endless example.

 

Thank you. I have come across some identification sites, and have the Spink catalog, but it seems one needs to have a lot of experience looking at these types in order to make them out.

 

...The most substantive thing I can tell you, really, is that it is every bit as endlessly complex as it looks. I've known people who are absolute mavens at it, but they only elicit my uncomprehending admiration!

 

According to the auction house that I bought this well-worn lot of pennies from, this is:

Edward II AR Penny, Canterbury mint

Obverse: + EDWAR ANGL DNS HYB ("Edward King of England Lord of Ireland") Crowned facing portrait within inner beaded circle, ruler's title around

Reverse: Long cross pattée, with three pellets in angles, mint name around. Lettering: CIVI TAS CAN TOR ("City of Canterbury")

Reference: Seaby SE 1466

As I’ve mentioned, I’m not able to verify this, just have to trust they’re right.

 

They can be tricky to tell apart. I am fairly familiar with British medieval coins but still struggle with the Edwards. I can look them up but I haven't got them committed to memory

Here is a reference page for Edwardian sterlings:
https://www.ukdfd.co.uk/pages/edwardian-Pennies/Edwardian Pennies P1.htm

Here are my examples of Edward I and II


Edward I (class 3g)



Edward II (class 11a)

 

It seems like it may be a good idea to shop for pennies that are actually readable, when getting into the Edwards Great coins.

 

Those are a couple of truly brilliant examples, @Nap, and thanks for the link, which I for one am going to bookmark.
Its only apparent downside, after the most cursory look at it, is the absence (unless I'm demonstrating my intelligence, again) of easy correspondence of the earlier, 'Type' system to the better known (at least --with apologies for the unfortunate ensuing phrase) 'Class' system. (...Frankly doubt the American one is much of an improvement on the UK version, at this point.)

 

Actually, @svessien, the legibility of the legends themselves is the easiest part. Sorry if I'm overliteralizing your last post! Except, from that alone, no less than the basic motifs (which really don't change), you can always know that you're looking at something temp. Edward I or II. It's only from that point that you have to really wade into the swamp.

 

Yes, I think I’m slowly getting it I meant «readable» in that you are able to see subtle differences in style, but it was an inaccurate use of the English language.

When the Corona-quarantine set in in March, I started going through and archiving all my coins. These coins were among the last to be identified and cataloged, among several impromptu coin purchases during the last 15 years. After finally getting this done, I’m going to try to learn from the best, and plan my coin purchases better. At least that’s going to be the New Years Resolution here: Plan better, and buy less but better. I’m really not good at this.

 

..Right, @svessien, thank you for reminding me of this! Another 'tell' of later issues of Edward I (c. Class 9-10, getting into the early 14th century) is the fatter midsection (no comment from here) of the letter 'S.'

 

@svessien, No, it was Anything but an inaccurate use of the English language! Rather, you get Lots of 'extra points' for your comprehension of the nuances of which it is capable. Even in American English, we have the phrase, 'visual literacy.' Referring precisely to what you mean: the ability to 'read' something which appears in a visual, rather than a verbal medium.
...No, you (Americanism alert: ) "nailed it."

 

The first thing I check is the form of the side fleurs of the crown. Classes 1-9 are trifolate and 10-15 bifolate. Compare the 2 coins posted by @Nap above. On the op coin, the right fleur is a blob but the left is distinctly trifolate.

 

First and foremost, nice penny @svessien I am certain it is class 4d. That is theonly class to feature a pellet before the EDW. Here is my example.


As to how to identify the type/class, there are about as many methods as there are classes and sub classes. Some collectors prefer to look at the crown first, others the letter styles, and others the initial marks. Frankly, all work and it really depends on the level of detail a coin has visible.

I personally start with the mint. If a coin's mint is anything other than London, Bury, Canterbury, or Durham, that narrows down the possible class to 4 options. Given that the 4 listed mints produced the majority of pennies though, it leaves a lot of coins in need of another method.

I next check the obverse legend. While there are a large variety of legends, as a general rule if the legend reads +EDW R ANGL DNS HYB it is class 1d thru 9 and Edward I. If the legend reads +EDWAR R ANGL DNS HYB it is class 10 thru 15 and late Edward I or Edward II. These are the two most common legends but by no means exclusive, as the coin below, class 1c, illustrates. The obverse legend reads +EDW REX ANGL DNS HYB.

Then you can also examine the shapes of the letters E and C. If they are open it is usually class 1-5 and if they are closed it is class 6-15, of course with exceptions. The initial mark also can narrow down the class as can the side fleurs of the crown, as @dltsrq noted above.

I guess all of this is my way of saying that it is really confusing and a good resource is needed if you want to me exact. I recommend the book "The Galata Guide to the Pennies if Edward I and II, by Paul and Bente Withers. It really is the best and easiest guide to the pennies. The book is also fairly inexpensive, especially when purchased used.