Is ICG really as bad as many people say?

So what exactly would be deceptive about a straight forward publicized scoring system since cons require deception?

It's very easy to not like something about something without resorting to implying it's a deceptive fraud or that anyone that likes it is falling for a gimmick etc

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Now you know two. I do not collect non-USA coins, so maybe ICG sucks at grading them. In my experience, overall they grade US coins just about on a par with PCGS and better than NGC and ANACS (this is overall - in some areas I think NGC is better than PCGS). Just based on the coins I collect and have collected - mostly silver and some copper - not much gold.

Now the market has definitely put ICG slabbed coins third or even fourth in marketability. But that is a different issue and some of the reasons for that have been already been put out there.

 

and you posted ICG does not offer/need that "Gimmick

 

Boy has this thread taken a life of it's own after it's recent resurrection! For some reason I hadn't gotten any email notifications about updates to this thread since last week and now I may need to get my eyes examined after catching up. It's too late to get my head examined since that expired a while back.

 

Maybe con was the wrong choice of words. I was using the word that @Lehigh96 used which I guess isn't exactly what I meant.

Here is the dictionary definition of the word Gimmick: "a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or business."

I submit that this is exactly what the point system is. If it was done by some other group that the organization that did the grading I might feel otherwise. But, it seems to me that a system that awards points based on rarity...and that rarity is determined by the same organization that awards the points is a brilliant way of creating their own demand. I also think that it gives them an incentive to keep the number of top pop graded coins low to encourage that coins be resubmitted over and over again.

The registry point system is a trick to attract attention, publicity, and business. Is that inherently immoral...no. But that's all it is.

 

As I've said a million times, people give FAR to much credit to the registry sets and it's really just become a crutch explanation for why they're considered better.

If a coins deserving it'll get it. PCGS and NGC don't need any resubmissions to have a booming business. Plenty of coins left to grade, plenty of cross overs, plenty of people that crack their coins out that will end up back there, plenty of world coins, and really could survive on moderns alone.

They're not sitting there going well this would be a 68 but we want more resubmissions so 67 it is

 

I just spoke to the owner of our company to confirm how we grade coins at ICG and this discussion is an excellent place to post. First a few caveats...

I have been unable to grade coins by my strict technical standards at any service I've worked for after leaving the first TPGS at INSAB in DC.

At PCI (green, red, blue labels ONLY) we were strict graders as proven by all the dealers/collectors who told us so and who commonly cracked out our "problem" coins and had them straight graded by the big two.

The reason for this post is to explain why you should NEVER send one of our slabs to cross at PCGS, ANACS, or NGC. That said...

There is a "gimmick" used by all the TPGS. It is called "Market Acceptable." It is a moving non-standard that depends on many things such as the coin type, age, value, etc. Today, I'm grading a large number of mid-date cents in F to AU. I'm looking up attributions for free on some with interesting characteristics that make them easy to find. Unfortunately, many of the coins have a tiny amount of corrosion, scratches, edge damage, etc. - all common things on the typical circulated Large cent. The coin that got me to show my grade (details) to the owner was an 1857 in AU-58 that was very lightly buffed (hairlined to most) on the reverse that was hardly visible (IMHO, most collectors couldn't tell) unless the coin was held in the "right" orientation to the light. My first reaction was to "give-a-bone-to the major dealer customer; but I stopped. I don't play favorites and this is a coin I would sell as an AU if I were a dealer because IMO, the coin is "market acceptable." BUT IT IS NOT. That's because "market acceptable" does not exist for us. When I straight grade this coin for ANY of our customers including this dealer, what happens next in many cases is this: The customer, who knows the coin market tries for a cross at another service. Of course it will not cross because ICG slabbed a "cleaned" coin. Yet, coins worse that this are commonly found straight graded in TPGS slabs. "Market Acceptable" is different for each service. Our owner confirmed that "Homey-Don't-Play-Dat-Game" in Tampa! I was told to continue to grade the coins as we see them. No junk goes into our holder. We'll, no TPGS is perfect.

 

Allan, posted: "...and you posted ICG does not offer/need that "Gimmick."

Geeze people . I've heard Heroin is the best thing going. I don't need it to be happy.

UNDERSTAND?

 

You need new friends if you're hearing that's the best thing going. Very weird comparison as well like somehow a coin tracking software is equal to a deadly intravenous illegal street drug

 

They're 69's ?

 

here's the people who basically make up ICG.

Randy Campbell
Senior Grader, Numismatist

Mark Yaffe
President, Numismatist

F. Michael “Skip” Fazzari
Numismatist

Juan Alvarez
Numismatist

think people should read up on these guys before rushing to judgement. i did before I bought my first graded coin by ICG, the coin i bought was a great strike which produced a grade of MS67. ever since buying that 1st coin I've bought 4 more, all graded by ICG. Personally I don't see a problem with them. I forgot to mention, my 1st ICG coin was bought because I wanted to judge for myself against the same coin i purchased which was graded by NGC. both coins were great strikes and both coins looked the same in grading the MS67. maybe my post will help someone........

 

baseball21, posted: "You need new friends if you're hearing that's the best thing going. Very weird comparison as well like somehow a coin tracking software is equal to a deadly intravenous illegal street drug."

I find that occasionally I need to use a cannon rather than a spit ball to get through some thick materials.

GoldFinger1969, asked: "They're 69's ?"

Yes, and even some 68's. We mostly get PCGS and NGC 69's trying for an upgrade. The last time we found 3 70's out of 300+ 69 slabs so it can happen.

When I find an MS-69 SE graded 70, I'll image the defects. I know who has some because I gave them to her as a gift. I kept the correctly graded 70's for myself. But it is no big deal. The big deal occurs twenty + years later when your 1980's MS-70 SE should be worth $$$ but it is not actually a 70. Back then, it was considered JUNK BULLION graded with naked eyes in a few seconds.

 

@mike estes,

Great story and I'm sure you know that the NGC coin is more liquid and worth more money to those who cannot grade for themselves or prefer NGC slabs.

Hey, tell my sister, your wife, that I'll give her a call tonight.

 

What did you think that weird heroin comment accomplished?

 

Who cares? So @Insider has a personality.

 

I've never tried heroin but back in my day I was a spit ball expert!

 

baseball21, asked: "What did you think that weird heroin comment accomplished?"

What I think does not matter. What matters is what you and Alan think.

BTW This discussion illustrates why no discussion of TPGS experiences is allowed in my seminars. I tell the class that we can find examples of over-graded,
under-graded, and correctly graded coins in the slabs of major TPGS - then we move on to the important things they paid for. It is nice to have the time and place to discuss things in length here on CT.

 

.

 

What I think is ICG and ANACS can do some upgrades to make them a better TPGS and just wish that they would that's all

 

That's all I'm really trying to say. But, the TPGs have created an incentive because it makes them money...and people eat it up. It's brilliant business.

But...the difference between a 67 and 68 is so close. I just wonder that if there are only a few 68s graded and thus worth a ton...if they have decided to be a little tougher on that issue. Too many 68s would be bad for the registry and being a little tougher encourages people who own the 67s to keep trying.

Maybe they don't...but there is money to be made here.