How much was a gold $20 Double Eagle worth in the late 1800s?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Gam3rBlake, Dec 1, 2020.

  1. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Supposedly the Grant administration got paper and gold at par at the end of his second term in 1877. He bragged about that in his best-selling autobiography. I’m not sure that it always stayed that way. There were contracts drawn which called for the payment in gold. That tells me that no everyone thought that paper and silver money were the same as gold, at least not all the time.

    One of things that drove Grover Cleveland crazy during of his second, non-consecutive term, during the Panic of 1893 was the dip the Federal Government’s gold reserve. The perception was if it fell below a certain level, that the stability of the currency would be at risk. Cleveland had to borrow gold from the likes of J. P. Morgan and other eastern bankers, which made him very unpopular in some circles.

    In 1896 Cleveland stood for maintaining the gold standard. He was not a fan of his party’s (Democratic Party) nominee, William Jennings Bryan, who based his campaign on the free coinage of silver.

    So far $20 gold go, they were not something that people ran around with, like $20 bills today. They represented the better part of month’s earnings for many people. As some else said earlier, a lot of stores would have had trouble making change if one bought a small item and offered a double eagle as payment.

    The proof is in the condition of the $20 gold coins we see today. Most pieces are EF or better. That indicates that they didn’t circulate that much. They got bag marks from getting clanged around, but “honest wear” from circulation was unusual. I can’t recall seeing a $20 gold piece in Fine via “honest wear.” Twenty dollar gold coins were made to make large payments, not for everyday use.
     
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  3. scottishmoney

    scottishmoney Buh bye

    They existed somewhat similarly to today's AGE's in that they were a store of wealth but didn't circulate practically at all. But they could be a circulating medium as their value was at par with the stated denomination of the coin, in contrast AGE's have a ridiculous stated value of $50, but yeah, right. Several years ago in Utah there was a business paying their employees in AGE's at the $50 value and reporting the employees income at that level as a tax dodge. They lost big time in court.
     
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  4. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    Very fascinating! Thanks for your input. :)


    So if I had a $10 Gold Eagle for example and as you said cheese was $0.10/lb does that mean I could walk into a store, slap my $10 gold coin down, and ask for 100 lbs of cheese?

    You mentioned that it was hard to make change but what if I didn’t need change and just wanted the full value in goods like cheese? Or bacon? Or a mix?

    Or would the normal store owner just flat out refuse to accept such large denomination coins and tell me to go to the bank and come back with 10x $1 Morgan Dollars?
     
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  5. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    I thought back then the dollar was pegged at $20.67/troy oz of gold?

    So wouldn’t that be more like the AGE today having a face value of like $1,800?
     
  6. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    The $20.67 per ounce price pegged the melt value of a $20 gold piece at about $20. A double eagle weighed a little less than an ounce. Unlike the ASE, there was not a huge difference between their face value and their melt value.

    As an example, when the Panama-Pacific $50 gold coins were sold in 1915, they had a melt value of $49.99.
     
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  7. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    I suppose they would have to actually have 100 pounds of cheese or any other item in stock, but I'm kind of doubtful a general store would have carried that kind of inventory of one item at one time as refrigeration and storage was an issue, maybe of a dry good though.....
    I suppose they would get your order filled given enough time depending on what it was.There was a whole lot of "credit ledgers" back then if they knew you, and you'd pay up when it hit a certain point rather than going back and forth with change, it was simpler times and smaller everything, but harder for people in general to thrive really.
    Also it was common to go in, place an order for what you needed in advance and come back to collect it whenever the shop owner said they would have the order filled by because he would only have so much of certain things and other things would need to be special ordered and brought in from wherever he could get it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
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  8. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    As far as 50 cent pieces, they became more common in the 1900s and beyond and while they did bounce around banks earlier, they become more of a normal coin for people to use as time passed and wages increased and prices went up ect.

    Like 1860 the normal laborer was $5.00 a week, by 1900 the average laborer was making about $13 a week and working an average of a 59 hour work week. around 1900 is when child labor was popular, because kids would work the 60 hour work weeks for 1/3rd of the pay that adults made. it was roughly 10 hour days 6 days a week back then. LOL
    there were coin collectors out there, but all those coins minted in the past still circulated and became more used decades after the dates on them from wage increases, cost of living increases and inflation ect.
     
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  9. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Yeah, from Barbers through Frankies more of them saw circulation, for reasons John explained above. But that only last about 50 years. Prior to that and after that, half dollars rarely circulated. And even during that 50 year period they didn't see anywhere near the amount of circulation that quarters and smaller saw.

    That's why I put them in the list.
     
  10. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    That’s what I thought at first so I added “or a mix”.

    Like if I wanted say $3 of cheese, $2 of bacon, $2 of flour, $2 of vegetables, $1 of fruit, $2 of beef, $3 of sugar, $2 of potatoes, $1 of beans and $3 of coffee..

    Keep in mind during the 1800s when people travelled west (such as the Donner Party) they had to load up with months of supplies beforehand and store it on their wagons for the journey.

    So I was wondering maybe they would buy large amounts of goods with coins like the Double Eagle.

    If you have say 4 families traveling together that’s each family pitching in $5 after saving for a long time for their travel.

    Im basically just wondering if you happen to know if gold coins were ever flat out refused even if the merchant could afford to make change or had the inventory.
     
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  11. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member


    Wasn’t Grant the President who sold huge amounts of gold from the treasury to lower the price of gold after finding out that Fisk and Gould were attempting to corner the gold market?

    It led to Black Friday 1869.
     
  12. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Yes, Fisk and Gould wanted to corner the gold market. They were paying Grant’s son in law to help them do it. I think that it was less Grant’s fault and more of an onus on Fisk and Gould. Think of the Hunt brothers and silver market. They took a lot of speculators down with them too.
     
  13. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    So you think there is some fault on Grant but less than on Fisk and Gould?

    I kinda feel like Grant was manipulated and did the right thing once he realized it.

    I mean being President isn’t easy. He would’ve had so many people plotting & scheming for their own interests that even doing the best he could he couldn’t catch them all.
     
  14. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    Gold and silver was always accepted, making change for it might be a problem for a store, but no, I don't think they refused it, then or now. Might of been easier to go shoot a deer or catch a fish or rabbit, or trade pelts or something, and barter that instead for what you needed then trying to break a double eagle at the store for 10 cents worth of flour though LOL.

    even so, there were banks and such around, to get gold broken down to more manageable and usable denominations if you had it.
     
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  15. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member


    Makes sense to me. I just like looking at my coins and wondering A). What they were used to purchase and B). What I could have purchased with them if I lived in those times.

    Like maybe some of my 1860s Morgan Dollars were used to pay a Union Lieutenant’s wages.

    I was looking at an old Sears Roebuck catalog and it said a pair of “pearl handled Colt revolvers” was $100.

    So 5x $20 Double Eagles might have been easier to mail for payment than 100 silver $10 Morgan Dollars.

    Especially when mail was charged by the ounce!

    It’s fascinating to think about.

    I do know I would definitely pay in 20x $1 silver dollars even if I had a gold Double Eagle.
     
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  16. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the info! :)

    I guess like you say gold coins were mostly used for large purchases due to the value of the coin and the difficulty for smaller retailers to make change.

    Im guessing if a man went to town with one he’d probably stop at a local bank and convert it into smaller denominations.

    What about the $1, $2.50 quarter eagles and $3 princess gold coins?

    They were much smaller and had lower denominations so maybe they were more popular? I would imagine definitely in the West during and after the Gold Rush of 48-49.


    It’s interesting to think of a time when currency actually had real intrinsic value.

    Im pretty sure you could take a $20 gold double eagle anywhere in the world and it would be accepted as something valuable just for its gold content.

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    Last edited: Dec 5, 2020
  17. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    I have read that the One Dollar Gold Piece was quite popular before the Civil War. The Federal Government did not issue paper money at that time. All of the paper was issued by banks whose paper could range from almost full face value to nothing. A gold dollar spoke for itself. It contained almost dollar's worth of gold and therefore had value for sure.

    When the Civil War broke out, the gold disappeared from circulation. You could only buy it by paying a premium amount in paper currency. Gold did not return to circulation, after the war because it's melt value exceeded it face value in currency. The mint tired to get the gold dollar back into circulation with some high mintages in 1873 and '74. but its time had passed.

    The Three Dollar Gold Piece was never popular. The mintages were very low, especially after the first year, and the coin was seldom seen. According to Roger Burdette, the $3 was created because, it was thought, that it would aid in making change among the gold coins.

    The $2.50 gold piece was too small for large transactions and too much carry every day. It was issued in limited quantities continuously year after year. My mother talked of receiving them as Christmas gifts and the like.
     
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  18. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Yeah, but only after they tested it. And the same was true of gold coins of any country. It was that way for centuries.

    Of course by the late 1800s most countries had instituted currency laws of their own just like the US did in 1857. But you could still cash in or convert coins from one country to that of the country you were presently in, but they would test all the coins first. And testing's pretty fast and easy, particularly with gold. All you need is a touch stone and some karat needles. Jewelers still use them even today.
     
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  19. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    So you’re saying if I went abroad to the UK with say 5x $20 Double Eagles in the 1890s I would be able to convert it into British Gold Sovereigns based on the gold content of the Double Eagles and converting that to the golden content of the Gold sovereign?

    Or am I mistake?
     
  20. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    They also had the right to weigh gold coins. If they were underweight because someone had scraped off some metal, they were worth less than face value. This was especially true when the mint accepted old gold for re-coinage.
     
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  21. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Yes, that is correct.

    edit - You have to remember that all countries have had money changers for over 2,000 years.
     
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