Is ICG really as bad as many people say?

That depends, if you plan to sell the coins as raw coins, then yes, they are a poor investment.

People have it in their head that TPG grading increases the value of the coin. That is false, what TPG grading does is increase the liquidity of the coin. Most collectors are unwilling to pay the full price of a raw coin because they know that they won't be able to sell that coin at that price unless they get the coin graded. That leaves the experts who will also have no reason to give you full price for your coin because they know the collectors won't pay that price, leaving you with no customers. At that point, the seller of the raw coin has only two choices: have the coin graded in order to increase liquidity or lower the price to increase liquidity.

Lets go back to the coin I illustrated earlier in this thread: 1938-S Jefferson Nickel ICG MS67.




The eBay seller of this coin had it listed for $37.50. The greysheet for the 1938-S is $170 in MS67 and $22 in MS66. So why didn't this seller list the coin for MS67 money? The answer is because he knows that ICG graded coins have no liquidity at full price guide value. He knew that his best chance to maximize his return on that coin was to sell it at a reasonable premium to the MS66 price guide, thereby increasing the liquidity of the coin. However, it is still important to note that his coin wasn't purchased by a collector, it was purchased by an expert who knew that the coin was graded correctly by ICG and that it could be sent to NGC to achieve the same MS67 grade. That NGC holder then provided an increase in liquidity so that the coin could be sold at the MS67 grade.

Now you made the statement earlier in this thread that ICG coins are considered raw coins by the market. I don't agree with that statement. If this coin was raw, you could reasonably sell it as a GEM BU coin and get MS65 money for it. Once you attempt to get premium gem money for a raw Jefferson Nickel, the liquidity disappears. As a raw coin, this coin would get $10. As an ICG coin, it achieved $37.50. As an NGC coin, it achieved $178. The coin stayed the same the entire time, but the liquidity threshold changes with the grading opinion. As a raw coin, the liquidity level is MS65. As an ICG MS67 the liquidity level is of a PQ MS66. And as an NGC MS67, the liquidity level is MS67. That isn't to say that if you wait long enough that you couldn't sell the coin raw at MS66 prices or even get someone to pay MS67 prices for the ICG MS67 slab, but when people sell their coins, typically, they don't want to wait months or years.

So the question is if you want to increase the liquidity of your coins, which grading company provides you with the biggest increase in liquidity? Sometimes the answer to that question is NGC, other times the answer is PCGS, but the answer is almost never ICG.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

And this is my point...if I have no interest in selling the coin in the forseeable future, there is no reason to have it graded by PCGS or NGC. When my collection gets sold in 50+ years, the market may be totally different.

 

I guess I would rather be prepared to sell my coins and give them the added protection and easy storage that slabs provide rather than scramble to get my coins graded in the event that my financial situation changes and I am forced to sell my collection.

 

Many of your replies make me debate starting to classify you as a dealer first, and collector second. You talk about "moving" things, selling for a profit, etc. a lot. Do you classify yourself moreso as a dealer or collector nowadays?

I do have to agree with the others. Though you (Lehigh) may be a "kid" compared to someone like @Insider , you're certainly on the older end of the collecting realm than some of us are. @CamaroDMD has a completely valid point about PCGS' place in the graded coin world 30-40 years from now. The news of yesterday that PCGS (CU) is being bought and will no longer be a publicly traded company come next year is an interesting move. @baseball21 will probably be heart-broken, since he is always using the stock price of CU as some sort of a straw-man argument of their 'superior status'...

Never say never. There are too many companies to even begin to count that were once "untouchable" market leaders that are today ghosts.

 

I'm not trying to invalidate PCGS's place in the field...but I also don't believe they drive it either. For those who view coins as a commodity more than a hobby...it is a great company. For those who are trying to cherrypick coins, slab them, and sell them for a profit they are a great company (if you have the skills). For those of us who view it as a hobby first, it isn't quite so critical.

I used to think just like @Lehigh96, but when I saw PCGS Currency shut down abruptly early last year...and suddenly nobody wanted notes in their slabs anymore, I suddenly realized that these companies aren't as set in stone as I thought.

So, my view is for short and mid-term resale...they are great. But for a coin that isn't in that premium realm that I plan on keeping, I don't need what they offer. I just don't trust what they will be at the end of my days.

 

I guess am both, but it is extremely difficult to add to a registry collection once you have completed it. That said, I think I have almost 10 upgrades this year. I will know for sure in the next few days as I have to update my set description for the 12/4 deadline for the registry awards.

Flipping coins for profit and making homemades via TPG submissions is just as satisfying as filling holes in a collection. Doug always uses the criteria that you are only a dealer if you make your living buying and selling coins, so by that definition I am not a dealer, so lets call me a flipper and leave it at that.

I feel like I am repeating myself. None of us can predict the future, but nobody here is going to tell me that ICG & ANACS are a good bet over NGC & PCGS in the long run.

 

Nobody is claiming that ICG and ANACS are a "good bet" over NGC and PCGS. We're just saying that for now we're collecting the coins, and we'll figure out the flavor of plastic when we actually want to sell them. You seem to cast everything in a gamblers or investors mindset. Many of us are collectors and very rarely sell anything.

I have purchased $1000 raw coins and then sent to NGC to slab. I personally would never send coins to ICG or ANACS (I hate their slabs and in the world coin realm, NGC is the top [most-respected] company IMO). But, I don't have any problem buying coins in those slabs. It seems the more "dealer-centric" one thinks, the more one gravitates towards pushing PCGS/CAC Kool-Aid.

 

Well, I am a professional gambler, so that makes sense.

You realize that I just posted an example of me buying a coin in an ICG slab in this thread right? And I certainly am not a PCGS/CAC Kool-aid drinker, I have stated many times on this forum, including in this thread, that I prefer NGC over PCGS.

 

Lol, ICG and ANACS are a good bet over PCGS and NGC in the long run. . (Well we never know what surprises the future holds, but let’s hope they are good surprises regardless)

 

Your example was interesting, thank you, and all humor aside, it provides a perfect example of why I am typically more interested in ICG and ANACS slabs than PCGS and NGC - especially on eBay, I am much more likely to win an auction for an underpriced ICG or ANACS coin that I wouldn't win in a PCGS or NGC slab because higher end collectors and dealers put a premium on the latter - though I have a fair number of PCGS and NGC slabbed coins that I've acquired over the years - in fact, on reflection, I have more PCGS slabs than anything else and I keep all my slabbed coins in PCGS blue boxes that I picked up for $2 each, for ease of organization and storage.

 

In my work as a tour guide in the USA, Canada and Scandinavia I've had the pleasurable duty of studying the history of lands, people, art, culture, industry, etc.

A little tidbit from research a couple of years ago for bus tours of the Red River Valley of the North. In the late 1800s and early 1900s "Bonanza Farms" flourished in the Valley. While homesteaders often farmed their 160 acres, Bonanza Farms (corporate entities, often managed by East Coast agents) consisted of 8,000, 10,000 or even 12,000 acres. Enormous farms for that age.

By the 1920s the Bonanza Farms had all but disappeared. The smaller farmers knew how to weather the ups and downs of hail, insects, market uncertainty, etc.

Who would have ever guessed the "big guys" would fail? We need only see how the pandemic has accelerated some trends, literally dooming some businesses.

I am not a professional gambler. But even as a penny-ante poker player I would never bet that the large TPGs are too big to fail.

Steve

 

When did I ever say that NGC & PCGS were too big to fail? If weathering the ups & downs and adapting to changing conditions is what determines who survives, the all the evidence shows that NGC & PCGS are far better equipped to survive than the little guys.

For those of you who scoff at my contention that every company needs to have social media outreach, perhaps the Instagram post from StacksBowers below will change your mind.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CIUWrcXrXqV/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

K-Mart, J. C. Penney's, and Sears all thought they were too big to fail. Mismanagement can happen to any company at any time no matter how big they are.

 

A crisis of confidence could cause one of them to fail. For example, evidence of corruption or major conflict of interest, potentially from a rogue employee. However, as long as their integrity stays intact, the value of their brand should also. I’m not questioning that it will. They seem to have their acts together.

 

As the starter of this thread I’m kind of shocked that it’s still going on! It’s sort of turned into a perceived value of the graded coin, as opposed to my original questioning their grade accuracy, which it sounds like is pretty good. I sent them a quarter and I actually think they under graded it, as opposed to their seeming reputation to slightly over grade

 

If you read the paper forums there were bigger issues towards the end of that license that then carried over to their rebranded company which may have been one of the reasons they didn't renew it aside from they wanted to do it themselves again.

CU brought paper grading back in house which has done perfectly fine.

 

"Every company" is just hyperbole. And not true at all. I would be willing to accept "every company which sells to the general public" or in any way tries to market itself to the public. But there are plenty of private enterprises which have a very small, select, and closed set of clients with whom they have actual personal relationships going back decades, and the last thing some of them want is any kind of social media exposure.

 

Are there any grading companies that don't sell their services to the general public? You know perfectly well what I meant, and I don't see the point in bringing up the rare exceptions, something that can always be done when absolutes like "every" are used, but in practice are meant as "virtually."

 

Lehigh, that was one of THE BEST posts I have read on CT and I have no interest in the coins involved. I learned a lot.

Thanks for spending the time posting it. I'll have comments below.

 

Important distinction, great point !

Since you found this coin on Ebay -- and you may or may not know the seller, I have no idea -- why are we seeing this "rational behavior" on the part of a seller of a raw or ICG coin...when we see such irrational pricing on moderns on Ebay with prices clearly way above recent completed sales prices ? Is this just 1 unique, "smart" seller who knows he can't overcharge by 30-100% and has to price accordingly ?

You say sellers don't want to hold coins months or years but clearly some coin sellers (on Ebay) don't mind that. Maybe the modern dealers know the The 1 Dumb Ebay Buyer will eventually come along and their clients are "dumber" and will eventually overpay, as opposed to buyers for classic coins that are raw or ICG ?

This is how MARKETS are supposed to work, where you have good information on both sides and liquidity at work. But too often, especially on Ebay, it doesn't because sellers there are unreasably high.

I wonder why the seller of this coin didn't list it for $75....claim it was a $170 coin...then take an offer of like $50 from some novice collector. Would have taken longer to sell than at the lower price to an expert but when I see overpriced junk listing for months or years.....

As I don't deal in Jeff Nickles or most classics, I guess things are different than in lots of the modern and commemoratives I see on Ebay. But I also see Saints and Morgans go begging for months, if not longer.

Brilliantly stated.