Had trouble scanning a note? This group has been using a law to stop your scans of certain notes.

Discussion in 'Paper Money' started by ValpoBeginner, Mar 7, 2019.

  1. ValpoBeginner

    ValpoBeginner Well Known Supporter

    Chances are that you've probably never heard of Central Bank Counterfeit Deterrence Group (CBCDG). Earlier, I hooked up a new scanner and scanned two banknotes that I just got from the BEP. A little message popped up and said ....

    Untitled.jpg

    So I clicked on information AND found out that I am criminally culpable if I don't destroy any scans

    18 U.S. Code § 504.Printing and filming of United States and foreign obligations and securities
    &

    31 CFR § 411.1 - Color illustrations authorized

    which say:

    Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, the following are permitted:
    (1) The printing, publishing, or importation, or the making or importation of the necessary plates for such printing or publishing, of illustrations of—
    ...
    (C) any other obligation or other security of the United States, and
    (D) postage stamps, revenue stamps, notes, bonds, and any other obligation or other security of any foreign government, bank, or corporation.
    Illustrations permitted by the foregoing provisions of this section shall be made in accordance with the following conditions—

    (i) all illustrations shall be in black and white, except that illustrations of postage stamps issued by the United States or by any foreign government and stamps issued under the Migratory Bird Hunting Stamp Act of 1934 may be in color;
    ...
    (2) The provisions of this section shall not permit the reproduction of illustrations of obligations or other securities, by or through electronic methods used for the acquisition, recording, retrieval, transmission, or reproduction of any obligation or other security, unless such use is authorized by the Secretary of the Treasury.

    The Secretary shall establish a system to ensure that the legitimate use of such electronic methods and retention of such reproductions by businesses, hobbyists, press or others shall not be unduly restricted.


    The conditions for scanning a banknote are in the code of Federal Regulations written into law in Jan. 2018 as:

    § 411.1 Color illustrations authorized.

    (a) Notwithstanding any provision of chapter 25 of Title 18 of the U.S. Code, authority is hereby given for the printing, publishing or importation, or the making or importation of the necessary plates or items for such printing or publishing, of color illustrations of U.S. currency provided that:

    (1) The illustration be of a size less than three-fourths or more than one and one-half, in linear dimension, of each part of any matter so illustrated;

    (2) The illustration be one-sided; and

    (3) All negatives, plates, positives, digitized storage medium, graphic files, magnetic medium, optical storage devices, and any other thing used in the making of the illustration that contain an image of the illustration or any part thereof shall be destroyed and/or deleted or erased after their final use in accordance with this section


    So far I'm cool with these laws esp. if it stops counterfeiting, but the guys enforcing these laws, (CBCDG) stopped my scanner from making a scan of my new collector's items. But how am I supposed to know what notes I will buy from ebay if the whole note isn't pictured...and in black and white only...Clearly, I am going to have to do what the stamp collectors probably did and write my congressman.

    It is kind of intrusive to stop a new scanner from allowing me to scan notes & I'd be really upset if I were a currency dealer.

    So who are the CBCDG? They are a group of 32 central banks and note printing authorities organized at the request of the Governors of the G10 central banks.

    Its mission is to investigate the common emerging threats to the security of banknotes, and to propose solutions for implementation by issuing authorities.

    The CBCDG supports and deploys technologies that deter the use of digital equipment to counterfeit currency.

    The 32 member central banks are from the following 31 countries: Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, the United Kingdom, the United States. The European Central Bank is also a member.

    I was able to skirt around the issue of scanning by rolling back the firmware and doing a scan to USB for my notes... but if they had their way, I suspect my post would look something like this....

    broken.jpg

    I must go destroy my sd card with the original images on it now using the method prescribed by Federal Law......so I'd like to know your thoughts on this....?

    Does the CBCDG have the right to deploy it's compulsory software in my home and stop my scanner from scanning banknotes, in order to prevent a seriously bad counterfeiting problem?

    OR

    Should, the Secret Service and only the Secret Service be able to author this type of software with image recognition to compel me to stop sharing my hobby with others?

    I'd really like to know what you guys think...I was kinda shocked that it wouldn't scan.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019
    George McClellan likes this.
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. Evan8

    Evan8 A Little Off Center

    The right to deploy software to see in your home??

    You own a smart phone right? Then they already are in your home lol :borg:

    Oh and you can make and print all the money you want. The intent to use it as real money is the real crime.
     
    GoldFinger1969 likes this.
  4. ValpoBeginner

    ValpoBeginner Well Known Supporter

    I'm with you on this one, I believe you are correct. But what happens when all the moneyyou created, 1. either goes to your heirs, or 2. escheats to the state when you die? I guess you won't care....but interesting to see what the policy is.
     
    Evan8 likes this.
  5. ValpoBeginner

    ValpoBeginner Well Known Supporter

    I wouldn't think that printed money from a desk-jet or laser printer would be able to fool anyone anyway. I think that the best way to combat the problem is through better security features.
     
  6. lettow

    lettow Senior Member

    No one is reaching into your scanner. The scanning software itself will not let you scan money.

    Your scanner is made by a private company. If they want to install software that will not let you scan money they have every right to do so.
     
    Kasia likes this.
  7. ValpoBeginner

    ValpoBeginner Well Known Supporter

    I hear you....but the "long arm of the law" reaching that I speak of was not Hewlitt Packard's arm, it was this banking group that compelled my printers manufacturer to include their software for detection of currency.
     
  8. Evan8

    Evan8 A Little Off Center

    Cashiers cant even count back money, what makes you think they can tell you who is on the $20 without looking, let alone spot fakes lol.
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  9. lettow

    lettow Senior Member

    The printer manufacturers are not compelled to do it. It is done voluntarily.
     
  10. ValpoBeginner

    ValpoBeginner Well Known Supporter

    Wow, they used to look similar, but now the colors like red in the tens, blue ink in the twenties, and other distinguishing marks in the bills are distinguishing feature not to mention the color shifting ink, the watermarks, and the whole different style of each denomination. I noticed a girl at Panera Bread look up to the light, looking through the bill at the watermark

    I think training is based on where the counterfeits are prevalent, Cause this girl, the one at Panera, if her employer takes the money to the bank expecting it to go into the business acct., deposits, and then some counterfeit bills are discovered, later on they receive notice that in the deposit there were counterfeits present and then he or she losses the the counterfeit portion of the money.
    Now if I were the Panera franchise in this case I'd be training my employees to recognize these features.

    Only at the level of a nation - state can governments even afford to print intaglio engraved plate printed notes with watermarks, magnetic ink, strips imbedded, and color shifting ink.

    The treasury depr. has free education online for people to get trained with these features.

    it also depends on your employee's traing program for cashiers. And the general education level of employees where you live.

    Where I live the cashiers seem to know what they are doing. They almost always check bills. I usually tell try to turn them away from the iodine pen and onto UV light.
     
  11. ValpoBeginner

    ValpoBeginner Well Known Supporter

    Voluntarily? I'm just trying to figure out how you got to that conclusion... If you still hold that belief after reading, perhaps I have something to learn here...

    From the mission of the organization:

    They are to :support and deploy.

    So voluntarily a company would write its own software .. That is what you are saying, right. Questions :
    Why is that so? How? Why? .. And you seem to know that the software companies have a choice? How is that? ...
    Are you on the board of directors at some printer manufacturer?

    I am not trying to be harsh, but I call your bluff...and say that you are operating on an assumption- beause it doesn't make proper business sense.

    Only because the manufacturers must do what the bank business conglomerate says the printer manufacturers must do, it gets put on the machine. .The banking authorities listed above are the ones chosen to implenent this policy. .Sure, HP, or whoever can author the software, but they MUST, and I'm sure the central banks would love that($), but the software must do what the banks want it to do, or the printer companies face the consequences, outlined in the administrative code, for non compliance.

    I believe the company would rather not install this software why would they want to lose out in the customers they could get, by adding this extra step. They are in it simply to sell printers and the replacement ink and any delay in software development would cost time and money.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019
  12. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor

    I use to have a printer that would scan and print bills, but at the 150% enlargement that is legal, but not 100% size. If you have a control for enlargement, try that if you have time, it might trigger the ability to print. Jim
     
    ValpoBeginner likes this.
  13. Hommer

    Hommer Curator of Semi Precious Coinage

    • Producing images of notes have been regulated. Any bank note image you produce must be at least three- quarters of the size of an original bank note. The resolution should be not more than 72dpi for digital copies. One may not be convicted for being in possession of a note that obviously looks fake and cannot be easily be passed on to someone else as a legal currency. An exception is made if the image of the bank note was reproduced for a news article that talks about money and the image is required for illustration purposes.
    • I copied this clip from here:
    • https://www.itestcash.com/blogs/news/your-guide-to-federal-counterfeit-money-laws
     
  14. ValpoBeginner

    ValpoBeginner Well Known Supporter

    THANKS, Good thinking... I've found a couple of ways around it. I ONLY SCAN CURRENCY

    1. ROLLING BACK THE FIRMWARE AND SOFTWARE VERSIONS, IF YOU CAN FIND ONE IF IT'S NOT NEW
    2. SCANNING DIRECTLY TO USB DEVICE
    3. TURNING OFF WIFI CONNECTION, OR MAKING IT SLEEP, WHILE SCANNING.

    THANKS FOR A FOURTH.
     
  15. ValpoBeginner

    ValpoBeginner Well Known Supporter

    I believe these are only punishable by fine and searches usually only done when entering a country., or a suspect in a counterfeiting operation.You are probably safe if it's digitized...

    But carrying full - size printed notes on cotton paper is strongly advised against, intent to defraud could be inferred. Also unless it says COPY in bold ink on it, if found on your person and recognized as illegitimate, you will be detained if their is any desire for an excuse to hold you.

    What bothers me even more, is that we are not only talking about US currency, its like a list of several countries' notes that might not scan if you don't find the old software / firmware for your computer and scanner. Result :Limiting interstate commerce in in trade of collectible banknotes from lots of countries that in the near future with a new scanner will not scan at all or at such a low resolution and sizel it won't be able to be assessed or scrutinized over without someone at a TPG certifying them.

    Hopefully they will make an exception to raw notes being traded or even shared between fellow hobbiests. Either that or my main source of supply for the hobby has an expiration date I did write my letter to congress for a collector forum and trade/auction exception for full 2 sided sales display amongst peers. We shall see if my wishes are heard, in the coming years But for now buy a new printer or scanner ;and you may find it hard to display your notes
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  16. Dave M

    Dave M Francophiliac

  17. lettow

    lettow Senior Member

    I am legal counsel for the International Bank Note Society and am very familiar with the US Code and CFR sections you copied above, as well as the workings of the CBCDG as I have been fielding questions about this for IBNS for years.

    There is nothing in the US Code or the CFR that requires the manufacturers to employ any kind of software. The scanner manufacturers bear no criminal responsibility for what a user does with their product. They have chosen to comply (partly, anyway) with CBCDG's guidance to avoid potential civil liability, particularly from the EU.

    I say partly because not all manufacturers comply and the technology is not employed in all products for some companies that do comply. Both of my HP printers on my home computers will scan all US banknotes. They were purchased in 2012 and 2016 and both use their factory loaded software. Of the two commercial copier/scanners in my office, the Kyocera (2016) will scan all notes but the Xerox (2014) will not scan current notes.

    The US Code and CFR sections you show above are actually an improvement over what the law previously was in the US. The change was somewhere around 2005. Previous law forbid all color copies regardless of size even if they were one sided. If you look at old copies of the SPMC's Paper Money you will see nothing but black and white images up until that time.

    Neither the Federal Reserve nor the Secret Service nor any other branch of the US government has been terribly active in pursuing anyone making and using scans of US or foreign notes for their websites or Ebay, etc. The same cannot be said for other countries. The Bank of Canada, Bank of England and the Central Bank of Turkey have been very aggressive in keeping images of circulating notes from being made even for educational sites. I am not aware of any attempt by any authority to prevent the use of images on Ebay.
     
  18. ValpoBeginner

    ValpoBeginner Well Known Supporter

    Thank you very much for making this much clearer. My apologies are in order, and wish to convey them to you.

    Sincerely,

    Valpo
     
  19. ValpoBeginner

    ValpoBeginner Well Known Supporter

    Dave M likes this.
  20. Cachecoins

    Cachecoins Historia Moneta

    I manage an office building on the side and one of the tenants paid me in cash. The owner always wants me to scan the checks and money orders with the deposit slip before I deposit. So I decided to scan the cash and sure enough, I got an error code. I thought it was just a glitch and tried again then restarted and tried again...no luck. Tried to copy something else and it worked.

    Looked it up and found that they are worried my little brother scanner copier could be used to counterfeit....even when copying in black and white...:)
     
  21. SteveInTampa

    SteveInTampa Always Learning

    I bought a Canon MX series to work wirelessly with IOS. It copies and scans paper money right out of the gate with factory software, no problem.
     
    midas1 likes this.
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page