1865 Two Cent - Tough to Photograph!

I bought this piece back in April of 2008 at the Central States show in Chicago. I paid strong money for this PCGS MS64 BN since I really liked the strike (the motto is especially strong) and the toning.

As my photography skills have slowly progressed, I still struggle with taking pictures of copper - especially trying to capture toning. The following pictures are better than what I took previously, but they still lack proper lighting leaving the pics a little too dark and I have not properly captured the bottom parts of the coin with clarity. I'm going to send this one to Mark Goodman because I think it is worth the effort to capture this one just right. I'm getting closer.....none of the pics below have been juiced.

I hope you like the toning and die cracks as I do!

I don't see any marks on the obverse to limit the grade......



I swear.....no juiced photo...the coin was tilted to reveal this vibrant color!


There is heavy blue toning on the reverse. The faded milky line running up the middle is on the plastic. Only two marks I could see was a nick just under the "S" in STATES with a small scratch continuing underneath toning (there is a small mark on the lower right part of the "2" but not other marks on the "2" despite what my pictures show). A nick just under the left ribbon at bottom not visible in my pics.

Lots of die cracks running from the "S" to and through "OF" picking up again overtop of "MERI". Also at bottom of wreath on both sides running the width of the coin.


Is this the curved "5" variety? More cool die cracks.



Beyond the marks I've indicated, would the several die cracks limit this piece from grading 65?

Let me summarize my ramblings:

1. Do you like this piece?
2. What variety is this 1865, if any?
3. Do you think the 64 grade is appropriate (a qualified opinion is expected based upon some unclear pics)?
4. Do multiple die cracks limit a coin from reaching higher MS grades?

Tell me what you think (even if it's only that you like or dislike the piece)!

 

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I also really like the toning

 

I like the coin, it's beautiful. I don't know how to grade that well and don't know the varieties. I believe that die cracks have no affect on grade.

 

I really like that coin. It looks completely original. And I like the die cracks. I'm not sure about this but I do not think die cracks like these would keep the coin from grading MS-65 but they may keep it from grading MS-66. (We should know for sure when Doug chimes in.)

Your photos look very good. But, as you know, there is always room for improvement. I am working on improving my coin photography skills too so take what I say as helpful critique rather than criticism.

Focus - On the obvere the date is out of focus but the rest of the coin is pretty much in focus. Is the coin tilted at all? Are you shooting straight at the coin? At these distances the depth of field is very shallow so if the coin is tilted some portions of the coin could be out of focus.

That said, sometimes you may need to tilt your coin to show toning. The tradeoff to capture color may be having parts of the coin out of focus.

Lighting - For the most part your lighting looks good. A few parts of the coin may be a tad dark and you have glare (from a light) on your slab and the coin in some shots. (Try moving the light around so it does not produce glare.)

You probably already know this but (for the benefit of those that may not) for best results you should not have any light in the room except for the lights illuminating the coin. Turn off other lights and lamps and close window shades. If you have adjusted your camera settings to the lights used to illuminate the coin and that is the only light falling on the coin you will get better results than if there are multiple types of light.

White Balance - The colors in your coin look fine but only you know if they are accurate. If you have set your White Balance correctly the camera will recreate colors more accurately.

Photo Editing - I cropped the slab out of your first photo (using Photoshop Elements) so the coin is against a black background. I think this looks much better than having the slab in the photo.

Overall though I think your photos are excellent. Feel free to critique my photos. I am always looking for ways to improve my skills.

 

1. Do you like this piece? Yes, nice original.
2. What variety is this 1865, if any? Curl top 5.
3. Do you think the 64 grade is appropriate (a qualified opinion is expected based upon some unclear pics)? Yes, looks like something on obverse between D (of God) and W (of We) near the rim.
4. Do multiple die cracks limit a coin from reaching higher MS grades? They should not affect the grade.


Congrats on the pick up

 

I love the coin and the pics are quite good. I also have a hard time capturing the fullness and toning of copper coins when I am photographing them, but someday I'll figure it out. Its a great coin though and well deserving of that 64.

 

I went through all of the 1865 "Fancy 5" coins listed in Flynn's book and I don't see one that matches your coin.
What does that mean? I don't know.

 

Die cracks do not affect grade. Die cracks are an indicator of die state.

Edit: Gorgeous coin, by the way!

 

I don't think those cracks would have any effect on the grade, but it is a nice piece. The cracks are cool, in that they elaborate on the conditions of the time and era, where dies were basically used until they shattered.

 

Hobo - re your photography comments....yes, the coin was tilted to focus on/capture the toning and this reduced clarity in the bottom part of both sides of the coin. I also used just one incandescent lamp that is positioned above the top of the slab, thus the lower part of the coin suffers from poor lighting (plus I'm coming in off angle with my lens to allow the light to fall on the coin). Oh well, I'll get there eventually!

Thank you for the black background photoshop. I wish I knew how to do that using Microsoft Digital Image 10 software. Does anyone know?

Treashunt - Is the "Curl top 5" the same as the curved "5" variety mentioned in the Redbook?

Thanks to all for your comments.

 

1. Yes
2.None
3.No
4.No

 

It's a nice coin, but it only gets an MS-61 in my books.

 

1. Do you like this piece? You betcha ! What's not to like ?

2. What variety is this 1865, if any? Dunno; ain't got no book

3. Do you think the 64 grade is appropriate (a qualified opinion is expected based upon some unclear pics)? Sure.

4. Do multiple die cracks limit a coin from reaching higher MS grades? In general, no. They are "as built" and do not directly* affect grade. For many folks, they are a plus. They're interesting.

For the real scholars, die cracks help them figure out die remarriages and emission sequence. So do any other indicators of die state.

Elements of die STATE might affect grade, as it might affect sharpness. As the die erodes, it can warp or bulge. This can cause certain areas of the coin to be so poorly struck that even an MS coin has little or no detail (missing stars, legend, etc). Also, worn dies have lost detail, so the coin loses sharpness and thus grade points.

Others will disagree with that last part, and that's cool. Diff'rent strokes.




* If the die crack is severe enough to cause poor strike in parts of the elements, then the loss of detail lowers grade. But the die crack itself should not lower the grade IMHO.

 

Another interesting caveat of this particular coin...

We all know to buy the coin, not the number. But this coin was probably designated "brown"... but has fabulous color !

There's this illusion that Red > Red/Brown > Brown. Not so ! This piece illustrates that.

Many red coins have a few spots, and the "redness" actually highlights them. They stand out, and lower the eye appeal. On a brown coin, those spots would be much less objectionable.

Color is the most personal and subjective element of a coin.

Buy the coin, not the designation.

 

.900 - AMEN to that! While a strictly red 2 center can be a stunner, I prefer one that has more character (toning) at a lot less money!

 

Any other 2 cent collectors to weigh in on the date and confirm Treashunt's attribution?

 

Okay Cat took me long enough but here goes.

1. Yes I do like it - a virtual no brainer there.
2. Fancy 5. As for other variety I don't know where my Flyinn book is and there are tons of varieties. Also tough without coin in hand.
Not seeing any RPD or anything like that though.
3).Yes I do. Very clean fields and overall for that matter. It is a very nice strike as well.
4. No. Die cracks should have nothing to do with the grade. It's in the die not the coin. If it were scratches it would of course. I frequently see die cracks on Two Cent Pieces. They can be very helpful in attributing actually.

Hope that helps a little.

clembo

 

Nice coin!!!! Die cracks and die clashes shouln't affect the grade. I recently purchased an IHC with a die clash and the grade was not affected. Again NICE COIN. As far as Im concerned the 2 cent pieces weren't around long enough.

 

Wow Catbert, that some good lookin copper. I like it !

 

Very nice coin. I have never really liked the two cent design and therefore do not know much about the series, but I know I like the toning on that coin. I bet the toning is even more attractive in hand. I agree with CAT, everyone else can have the RD's, we will take the toners at a much cheaper price. Good pickup!