Culls for a Triumviral Portrait Gold

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Andrew McCabe, Nov 11, 2020.

  1. Andrew McCabe

    Andrew McCabe Well-Known Member

    I bought this: which is R.Ratto, Martini coll. (Feb.24 1930) lot 1351 (est. CHF 600) ex R.Ratto Morcom & Hands colls, (8 Feb. 1928) lot 1674 (CHF 350). Buttrey, Triumviral Portrait Gold, ANS NNM 137, 1956, pl.6, 48.13 (this coin)
    494-02 Antony Aureus. L.LIVINEIVS REGVLVS Antony, Hercules seated on rock. AM#2028-0, mm 0g00.jpg

    So some stuff has to go. I have too many Caesar portraits so discards on their way:
    480-05b Sepullia & Caesar Denarius. P.SEPVLLIVS MACER Caesar, Venus. AM#14140-42, 20mm 4g18.jpg
    480-17 Mettia & Caesar Denarius. M.METTIVS . AM#0637-32, 18mm 3g21.jpg
    These are BOTH lifetime issues.

    Ted Buttrey in 'Caesar at Play: Some Preparations for the Parthian Campaign, 44 BCE', 2015, makes a convincing case that all the Caesar portrait types in RRC 480 excepting the one accidental mule, an error coin wrongly classified as RRC 480/20, were struck prior to his death in March and to fund his Parthian campaign. Bernhard Woytek makes similar arguments in Arma et Nummi. I have always thought the sequential order proposed by Alföldi and adopted unchanged by Crawford, didn't allow for the evidently parallel workshops shown by the very different styles and flans of each type. I have long been convinced that all of RRC 480/1 through RRC 480/19 plus the fractions were struck in the first two and a half months of the year. Certainly the number of dies - less than 200 - makes that a physically easy task. I discussed this with Buttrey and Woytek (on a Saturday afternoon in Cambridge three years ago) who are totally supportive, and I hope to follow with an alternative study to the Alföldi/Crawford arrangement in time. First I have to work on bronzes for a while though. Anyway, this Mettius denarius was certainly struck during Julius Caesar's lifetime.

    Also some bronzes getting dumped due being duplicates where my others have better provenances.
    039-04 Semilibral Uncia. collateral series Sol facing, Crescent moon, two stars. 25mm 13g78.jpg
    476-01b Clovia & Caesar Dupondius. C.CLOVI.PRAEF CAESAR Victory, Minerva.  25mm 14g62.jpg
    In the case of the Sol / Crescent and stars Uncia, my other coin was owned by the French first world war General Grandprey. My alternative Clovius goes way back further though, to Apostolo Zeno in 1600s Venice.

    And the early Brutus, first consul, with the famous cobwebby wrinkly eyes? Not really sure why I gotta lose Brutus and Ahala. Sometimes coins look better once they are gone. This type has many bad dies and just two or three including these that have the super aged realistic natural portrait busts.
    433-02 Junia Denarius. BRVTVS AHALA first consul #12001185-38, 18mm 3g82.jpg

    Friends tell me I've the most ruthless culling knife in the collecting world. But when you wanna own a Triumviral Portrait Gold Aureus of Mark Antony, with a century old published provenance, knives must out.

    Wonder what experience others have in culling their collections?
    Andrew
     
    Cucumbor, Pavlos, Orielensis and 25 others like this.
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. Gavin Richardson

    Gavin Richardson Well-Known Member

    My word. Your discarded coins would be the centerpiece in most people’s collections, including mine.

    This may be a stupid question, but is the scoop in the right field on that aureus a weight scoop done at the mint, or some bit of damage done over time?
     
    Ryro, Scipio, Restitutor and 3 others like this.
  4. AncientJoe

    AncientJoe Well-Known Member

    I see a collection as an evolution and I too will periodically cull pieces that don't quite fit or which I've upgraded. Your culling makes good sense in my eyes, trading nice but otherwise replaceable coins for an extremely tough piece.

    While I'd love to keep everything, it's financially prohibitive and, looking back at the batches of coins I've sold, I wouldn't want to buy them again regardless of budget; my collection is better off now being more tailored and focused.

    I consigned these coins a couple years ago to NAC. I had just upgraded the Knossos drachm to an irreplaceable stater and while the others were nice, I didn't "need" them:

    NAC.png

    With the proceeds, I purchased this Domitian ex. Boscoreale aureus (also Ex. Biaggi and a few other important sales) as well as this Cleopatra denarius:

    RomRem.jpg
    Cleopatra.jpg

    Then I sold a larger number of coins in a Triton auction. I'd since upgraded a few and some of the others just didn't quite fit anymore:

    2.png

    The resulting purchase was a Nektanebo stater - the only coin with hieroglyphics on it - and a finely styled infant Hercules drachm, both of which are well-pedigreed (the former recently became subject to import restrictions so I knew I needed to buy the next available example):

    Nektanebo.jpg
    InfantHeracles.jpg

    I'll be going through another round of refinements to offset some of the cost of my recent Eid Mar + Greek purchases and, having begun the selection process, I can already see how it will result in a net-improvement.

    It'll be sad to see some pieces go but I've been window shopping and picked out nicer examples of the types which will hopefully eventually find their way to my collection even if it takes a handful of years.
     
    Shea19, Cucumbor, Theoderic and 17 others like this.
  5. Andrew McCabe

    Andrew McCabe Well-Known Member

    Believe it's external damage. In a type such as this, irreplaceable at any reasonable cost, one must put up with some defects. As Joe said, tho lovely coins, the culls are eminently replaceable
     
  6. Andrew McCabe

    Andrew McCabe Well-Known Member

    This is the sort of process I follow too. I've a retirement pension of an ordinary engineer so generally following a 3 coins out, one better (or rarer) in
     
  7. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    A great coin that could be one of the centerpieces of a collection.
     
  8. str

    str New Member

    Andrew, you and Joe have more fortitude than I do. I sell some coins occasionally either due to upgrades or due to the need to pay for a special coin as Andrew has done. But I often have regrets. It is hard to let coins go. But I’m glad that you do, because it provides opportunities for me.
     
    PaulTudor likes this.
  9. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Wow, hard to believe those are culls. Beautiful coins...To each their own I guess.

    I cull out coins pretty often and like above, it's to get better coins or an upgrade to a coin I already own condition or rarity wise.

    I am culling out over 733 world coins that I just don't enjoy anymore. Most I've had since childhood, much of it is better stuff too. They get mailed tomorrow. Not interested in piecing out so many.

    I have focused on collecting just silver dollar size modern world coins. Bye-bye small denominations, unless it's some I really like which I kept.
     
    Ryro and PaulTudor like this.
  10. Romancollector

    Romancollector Well-Known Member

    My thoughts exactly @Gavin Richardson

    @Andrew McCabe I actually picked up your Regulus denarius from Roma XX, and I’m excited to have it in hand tomorrow (hopefully)!

    I too have been editing my collection. Recently, I sold 3 beautiful solidi (a 4th one will also be sold), all of which are higher grade. Each had issues that bothered me, so I figured I would rather be patient and find examples that I am 100% happy with. At the moment, I’ve only found one replacement, but I know I will find the rest eventually.
     
  11. akeady

    akeady Well-Known Member

    I saw these and others appear for auction recently and may bid on some.

    I haven't culled anything from my collection, which continues to go in several directions at once.

    I just checked on Tantalus and have 88 coins with an Andrew McCabe provenance!

    ATB,
    Aidan.
     
    Ryro, zumbly, DonnaML and 1 other person like this.
  12. Andrew McCabe

    Andrew McCabe Well-Known Member

    The Regulus denarius was a stonking bargain. Compare it to the Maison Palombo example up now which has a 3000 franc estimate, and you'll see that yours is a better coin. Amazingly good buy and one I made a big loss on but things turned out ok more or less. So am very happy you got it.
     
  13. Romancollector

    Romancollector Well-Known Member

    Thank you! I was also little surprised by the hammer price, and I’m sorry you incurred a loss... I know the feeling very well. In my experience selling approximately 100 of my coins so far, it’s been 50% losses and 50 % breaking even/profits.

    I saw the Maison Palombo example, and was a little shocked by the estimate.
     
  14. Andrew McCabe

    Andrew McCabe Well-Known Member

    I'm absolutely delighted when collectors get bargains from me.

    I'm a bit less delighted when dealers cherry pick bargains from me and then flip at 400% uplift. Its fair honest business but less delightful.

    The bargains are usually matched by other coins where two "very enthusiastic" collectors fight it out.
     
    Restitutor and Romancollector like this.
  15. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I don't study Republicans but it seems from online postings that there are none that do not exist in mint state or in a quantity which would allow you to cull and upgrade every one that was not perfect. Are there types where the finest known is only 'Fine'? Are there very rare (lets say under ten known) coins or is 'rare' in this area something like the EID MAR denarius with a hundred known? Is there a Republican denarius known from only one example?

    When I bought my only ex. McCabe castoff, I was looking for a coin with more complete legends than what I had and was willing to accept what seemed like pedestrian style.
    r27120fd2298.jpg

    It replaced my previous example which was shot on some legend. The part that bothered me was the lack of REX.
    r27120bb2298.jpg
    We often have to choose between grade and style when selecting common types. For less common things, I feel lucky to fine any example and avoid being picky.
     
    Restitutor, Ryro, Valentinian and 6 others like this.
  16. NewStyleKing

    NewStyleKing Beware of Greeks bearing wreaths

    Focusing.
    I used to collect Roman Imperial denarii/radiates but was met with total indifference and the reverse subject matter was generally boring. So off they went, so much so I have somehow, retained no pictures or details of them! They are small coins so I wanted bigger and bolder but knew less about Greeks than Roman.
    Alexanders,Seleucids,Athens Old Style, cistophorus ,Thasos came and went to focus on the glorious Athens NewStyle series and some Mithradatic related coins.These tell a story and interpretation can be still controversial.
    Some need improving, one has been cos the flat strike got on my nerves, but need only about 4 to complete my project.
    I have a couple of ex so & so's collection but it's not a big thing for me, found, excavated,smuggled from Turkey, Syria or Balkans to Germany, USA or London that's the provenances' I suspect. I wish I knew the context but that is unlikely now or in the future.
    At least I try to show some research on the coins and not just tick off a list. Which is, of course, what happened with the Eid Mar aureus-I'd love to know the truth of its backstory and who knew of its existence before its recent surfacing and research.
    So maybe my coins and collecting methods are in distinguished aristocratic modern-times company .
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2020
  17. Andrew McCabe

    Andrew McCabe Well-Known Member

    Provenance and collector history. That's my main collecting focus for common coins. If I can't get a kickass provenance then I rather wait. For rarities I make exceptions.

    The coin that opens this thread is such an example. There's about 5 not in museums and my example, fine to very fine and with awesome provenance, is about the best realistically obtainable. And it's an historically important type. Whereas the coins I'm letting go are easily available for dollars at any time. And I've got others the same or similar in my collection.

    In the case of the Curule Aedile type I replaced with one more worn but marginally more complete and with more mirror like surfaces and with a 1950s provenance. Thats for me an upgrade. Even tho I went from EF to VF
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2020
    Restitutor, AncientJoe and Carthago like this.
  18. NewStyleKing

    NewStyleKing Beware of Greeks bearing wreaths

     
  19. NewStyleKing

    NewStyleKing Beware of Greeks bearing wreaths

    The Eid Mar is 1/3 , 2 in museums, but with that provenance would you have collected it-even as an exception?

    It's genuine, now researched and apparently from an art-loving expert-Aristo's collection acquired sometime and now the most expensive Roman coin ever sold and yet suddenly risen blinking into the world.
    It's not even the Salvador Mundi of the coin world-that was known and argued about for yonks with a-long provenance-just doubtful attribution ,the Eid Mar essentially has no provenance.

    I have a RRRRR 2 Palms NewStyle- 4 known, 3 obverses 4 reverses mine is the only known one in private hands. I bought this too from Roma Numismatics with provenance "from an English collection".

    So my coin essentially has no known provenance-just like the Eid Mar. I too expect to be able to sell it on and I too can claim to be an art-loving expert Aristo! With credentials from Robin Symes.
     
  20. Andrew McCabe

    Andrew McCabe Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't collect an eid mar with weak provenance. There's well over 100 known. I can wait or do without. I would collect an unimportant but very rare type with unknown provenance. But actually, "unimportant but very rare" is an oxymoron — if a coin is very rare it's NOT unimportant.

    I've very limited funds, a pension, and try to use my experience, without extra cash input, to assemble the best collection I can. So several factors have to compromise. The historical importance of a coin type, its rarity, its provenance and its condition. With this in mind, I'm now in process of swapping severap Caesar portraits (I have plenty left over) for a Triumviral portrait gold.
     
    DonnaML likes this.
  21. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    I agree! For me its really hard to part with any coin/ unless its an upgrade in quality.
    John
     
    Restitutor likes this.
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page