I got a chance to buy this coin?

Yeah I have already been out bid and its going up fast. Seller has over 19000 positive items sold and all that, i am still trying to figure out from the bid pictures how to spot its automatically fake.

 

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Whether it's ancient, medieval, US, or World coins, the best way to learn how to visually spot potential fakes is view and study lots of coins. As you look at coins, you will begin to spot things that don't look right. The style, fabric of the coin, lettering, etc. Sometimes it's hard to communicate exactly what's bad, but you know "something looks funny". If you have access to data like weight, size, composition, that can help to confirm.

There also a few sites that show known counterfeits of ancients. Once again, you need to study the die characteristics and then see if it matches the coin you're questioning.

This is not something you're going to learn overnight. It takes time, dedication, and patience. The members here in the ancient section have a great deal of experience and knowledge. That's why they recommended going through respected dealers until you have experience. One of the reasons I follow the ancient forum here, is that it gives me the opportunity to look at lots of different coins and read the expert opinions. It really helps me a lot.

 

In that condition, if real, that is a multi-thousand dollar coin.

 

I agree that this is not particularly easy to tell.

First of all, the size and weight are off. It should be closer to 18-19 mm and weigh between 3.5-4 grams.

Stylistically these coin do vary, so I can't condemn this coin based on the obverse alone. But the reverse is very problematic. For one thing, it's upside down. Here's is the photo with the correct orientation:

Now go to either VCoins or the Research page of CNG and search for "Julius Caesar elephant." Compare the reverse of this coin with the examples that come up. You should notice some obvious differences.

You will also, if you check selling prices, realize that no one in their right mind would sell a genuine example of this coin for $27, or even $270, in this condition.

You can check for known fakes by going to these two resources:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/thumbnails.php
http://forgerynetwork.com/default.aspx

Finally, Warren Esty, one of our fellow CT members, maintains a fairly up-to-date list of known eBay sellers of fakes coins. Get into the habit of checking this list when buying coins off eBay:
http://augustuscoins.com/ed/fakesellers.html

 

That was my main reason for getting a second opinion was auction started low. I know the ones I seen before were high dollar. I am first to omit that I am super new (2 months with ancient now) and need advice. Its the reason I love this site and members. So much knolage here. I guess when I get more than 2 months under my belt I wont get as mant comments like "if you have to ask maybe this is not the hobby for you"...

 

This is absolutely the hobby for you. We just hate seeing newbies get burned, and sometimes text comes out harsher than we intended. I think any animosity that bubbled up was probably directed at the seller, not you.

I've been collecting ancient coins for around 20 years, and I am still learning. I still write this group with questions about coins, usually once or twice a week, and the people here are almost universally helpful, supportive and friendly.

 

@Everett Guy, this has turned into another great educational post, in more ways than one. As noted, assessing real from fake can be a daunting task...don't take it personally! We all learn from each other, & we should hopefully recognize our personal limitations & try to improve them.

That said, your comment:

...is not even close, in fact, I wouldn't say that the specimen in question is even 50% of the first one you posted. So aside from learning the "genuineness" of coins, it's important to learn the quality as well. The same advice applies: you need to handle (read: see first hand, in person) a lot of real coins of different conditions, & over time, your assessments will be more accurate.

As for:

Don't let the actions of "bidiots" sway you! And while you should consider negative comments to be a red flag, "19000 positive" should not indicate "all is good", especially on FleeceBay.

Keep at it - you've had some good posts since you joined 3+ weeks ago, & we look forward to learning with you!

 

Better to be safe than sorry. I would rescind the bid, but of course, that is my opinion.

 

Part of my education was taking a look at what my target coin tended to retail for on VCoins in various grades. If you typed in “Caesar elephant denarius” on a VCoins search, you would see that coin retail from anywhere from $400 to nearly $2000. While you may think you could do a bit better on eBay, still, the idea that this coin would be sold for under $100 in that condition would logically be filed in the “too good to be true” category.

I don’t have a lot of money. That’s why I stick to late Roman bronzes. When I do have some extra money and I want to go for a coin that may cost me a few hundred dollars, I really do my homework, including checking the fake seller lists and trying to get a sense of what a reasonable price should be for that coin.

 

The style is wrong. The relief is two dimensional and lacking the 3 dimensional qualities of an authentic example, the dies just don't look like they were made by hand but by some sort of machine. The way the border of dots disappears on the obverse is unnatural and does not look like a flat struck area, a wear artifact or a clogged die but looks like they're missing on the die which is never a good sign. The weight is far too high for the type. The coin doesn't appear to have any actual wear, just a die cut to uniform levels all over, giving it an appearance of wear.

Overall, the coin just does not look anything like an authentic example. In addition there are at least two nearly exact twins of it for sale on eBay at the same time.

For what it's worth, you can't pay attention to eBay feedback. It can easily be manipulated and fakesellers are very good at it, but really they don't even have to manipulate it in most cases because the people buying the coins don't know they're buying fakes so they'll happily leave good feedback thinking they got a $1000 coin for almost nothing and won't realize they've been had until it's too late. If they do initiate a return, as long as the fakeseller honors the return they can usually get eBay to remove the bad feedback, if the buyer even leaves it.

 

Like others said, we welcome all here and we hope you feel that.

The subject of fakes can be daunting, no question about it. My suggestion? Put your wallet away, get OFF Ebay, and go to numisbids and look at good auctions. Just look and look and look. Train your eye to what a real ancient coin looks like. If you start on Ebay, you start to train yourself all of those fakes might be real, and you will never learn. Ebay can be a place for bargains at time FOR THOSE WHO KNOW HOW TO SPOT FAKES. Do not start there sir, since you will never learn how to spot fakes.

I look at thousands of good coins at good auctions a month. THAT is how I knew your coin posted was fake in two seconds. That should be your long term goal, and you will get there if you follow my advice. Plus, you get to look at beautiful coins for hours!

 

Style and fabric primarily, which you get from looking at hundreds of authentic examples, but also this is way too heavy at 4.9 gm. These were struck on a 3.8 gm standard. 4.9 is not totally impossible but almost, and is a bright red flag.

 

Great info, i am glad to learn about what to look for. Its def a learning curve than collecting u.s. coins which i got many years of collecting. I appreciate all the help.

 

I think it’s best to stick with low value coins before jumping into Caesars, aureus coins, etc. foo much risk for the unprepared

 

Helpful info here for the OP for some of the starter things to look at for one trying to rule out fakes.

Besides the other primary disqualifiers(ie. weight/size/style/fabric etc.), mentioning the "unnatural look" of the broken border is also a good indicator to cause suspicion and aid in one's confirmation of a coin being a modern fake copy.

While this coin's dies are not ancient, oftentimes copies are made utilizing authentic host coins as a 'mother'. The transfer methods applied to make copies may lead to inconsistencies where there ought to be border and/or legends that may appear unnaturally incomplete(ie. not as a result of honest circulation, environmental wear or worn dies).

There are a handful of helpful resources online that provide for some good pointers on potential things to look for in spotting (as well as compiled databases of) fake copies of ancient coins. Google is one's friend.

The advice to look at auction archive sites that specialize in numismatics for learning and becoming familiar with ancient coins types is sound. Once one finds themselves having looked at 1000s and even tens of 1000s of different coins, it may eventually become instinctive to recognize when something doesn't look right about a coin; warranting a closer look. How much of a timespan for this experience to be gleaned may depend on how obsessive one might be about the hobby.

It deserves nothing that while the most obvious are pretty easy to identify, there are also some darn good fakes out there that are capable of tricking those that may even be considered as knowledgeable experts. Often a picture alone is not enough to make a determination.

From a personal standpoint(as a fairly new collector myself as well as one that peruses eBay), I find it easier to start with the presumption that all coins are fake; until I feel comfortable enough to rule them out as fakes with a reasonable level of certainty. I find that approach better then presuming all coins are authentic until determined to be likely fake. There is a set of criteria that I choose to employ. If I have doubts, I'm fine with passing on a coin. This approach musters increased scrutiny if the coin that I'm interested in is at the higher end of my budget (for any one coin).

Buying a $10 or $20 mistake to learn a lesson is a lot easier to stomach than making a 3 figure error.

YMMV

 

I guess I was 1/4 - 1/2 correct, right?

 

I'm pleased to see one's enthusiasm as a new-to-ancients collector. I can relate.

Coin Talk(Ancients) is a great place with some very helpful members. I'm happy to have discovered this forum when first searching the internets while attempting to attribute and learn more information about unknown-to-me coin types.

Here's an example of an (unattributed)auction mix-lot that I won on eBay from an established coin dealer, but not one that specializes primarily in ancients. I was only a few months into collecting at this point.

The lot was titled "H3 Ancient Coins Mostly Roman Assorted Group 4 pccs"; w/ no other identifying information in the listing description.




I suspect that the dealer may have acquired a collection at their brick&mortar location. Perhaps dad/uncle (or mom/aunt) was a collector that passed away, and a family member figured that a coin shop would be the simplest way to liquidate the entire collection. Being a long established eBay seller not too familiar with, nor wanting to take the time to attribute seemingly common ancient coins in VF(or less) condition, perhaps the dealer figured to allow eBay bidders to dictate the value. As such, I also imagined that the dealer likely underpaid considerably for the collection to ensure some level of profit. This, of course, was all my own wild speculation at the time.

Now at first look to the amateur collector, at a quick glance, these coins look to be a little on the rough side & maybe harshly cleaned...Nothing too special but decent perhaps.

Well, right off the bat, I recognized the portraits of the emperors Caligula and Vespasian. So I figured that I'd give it a shot, being as they were bronze and kinda ruddy -- a somewhat lower risk as a gamble at the eBay saloon.

I think it not necessary to state what I won the lot for. It went mostly under the radar for the entire duration. However, at least a couple other bidders knew what was being offered here, and all of the significant bidding happened at snipe time in the final last seconds. I still got it at a good price(less than my conservative max).

While the Caligula (being in decent enough condition for me) helped to satisfy as a 12 Caesars space-filler, and the Byz and Vesp are also pretty cool; the real obscured gem for me was the unknown one marked as Ancient Coin Group H3.

My surprise when I received the lot was that the 4th coin on the bottom(which I had a hard time making out in the picture) was a cool Q-series Roman Republic Minerva/Ship's prow Triens minted around the time of the 2nd Punic war. To boot, it is in pretty good shape.

Attributing the type was a fun exercise in research that led me to RRC devoted websites, as well as information provided by Andrew McCabe(a well-known RRC collector and researcher). I was able to pinpoint it to the sub-type Crawford 56/4.

I was also inspired to learn the different denominations of Roman Republic bronze coinage, as well as how those denominations were denoted on coins as dots -- Three for Triens.


What I'm trying to convey here with my long-winded post is... eBay can be a decent auction site where cool finds can be had for those whose risk appetite may allow for it. Yet, I find it necessary to do a lot of varied research about an unknown coin(or coins), if I'm going to spend more than the price of a six-pack of beer, or bottle of wine that I might need to consume to dull the pain of making a foolish mistake.

 

I agree. You demonstrated knowledge and some expertise in your post sir, and if you have that and a willingness to accept you might make a mistake, Ebay CAN be a good place to get some deals. Once you are further along in the hobby, I do not say avoid Ebay, I just say do not start there, and recognize most better coins do not end up there. We talk about better coins on Ebay because they ARE unusual.

 

Learning is great but we must learn correctly. Three dots is a quadrans; four dots would be triens. The system worked on base 12. That means the 1/3 coin (triens) would be 4/12 and be marked with four dots while the 1/4 coin (quadrans) would be 3/12 and be marked with three dots. The names indicated the fraction of the whole (as) not the number of dots. We also see the 1/6th coin with two dots called sextans and the 1/12, one dot, uncia. Unfortunately inflation and weight standards changes resulted in an earlier quadrans (for example) being larger than a later triens. The Romans switched to an S rather than six dots for the 1/2 or 6/12 coin called the semis. Rarely, they even issued some oddballs with other fractions but new collectors are not likely to encounter them except in posts by some of our real hardcore Republican specialists. The Greek cities of Italy and Sicily often used the same 12 system but used Greek names for the set and used six dots for the 1/2 coin. That is overkill for this post.
Semis


Quadrans


Uncia (This one is earlier and larger than the above, later, quadrans.)

 

Yes. Thanks for the correction - A mental slip on my part.

I was a little 'faded' last night when I wrote that. I've been a little a wrapped up with modern democracy the last few days.