Zodiac on Roman Coinage

I would assume that someone paying an expert would like to get hidden information about the coin like surface issues, repairs or a missed provenance. What is the reason then for an advisor to tell you how much to bid? Is it sound advice to bid 15k for a coin estimated 2k?
I have no idea who you are nor who your advisor is. If you think he's good because gasvoda said so, then have a look of the recent hammers of gasvoda coins vs what he paid.

It's clear for me that the recent prices are dictated by a few such advisors. If you were interested in this coin as well and your advisor told you better bid up to 20k to be safe then you would have paid 16k for it.

 

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Yes, exactly... that is quite literally what you're paying them to do. Dealers bring their experience to aid you in deciding on a price: estimates are not equal to value and paying 15K for a coin estimated at 2K might be underpaying whereas in other cases, paying $20 for a coin estimated at $2K might be overpaying.

 

That's the most interesting coin I have seen in a while, and your picture is way better than CNG's in my opinion

A(nother) wonderful acquisition. Thanks for sharing it

Q (with nothing to show this time... )

 

I said advisor not dealer.

 

So let me understand. You pay an advisor x% of the hammer of the coins he examined for you only if you are are successful? Isn't it then in his interest to drive you high so you don't get cliod and he gets his commission?

 

This seems like an excellent opportunity to clear up some misconceptions about why a collector like me would use a dealer as an advisor.

Fundamentally, I pay a dealer/advisor to provide expertise that I don't, or may not, possess.

This includes, but isn't limited to, opinions about tooling or re-engraving, additions such as filling and epoxy, repatination, scratches, authenticity, provenance, pricing, market conditions, potential bidders, the auction house, etc.

I'm not sure what you mean by "hidden" but regardless, the above paragraph should be sufficient to answer that question.

When you write "If you think he's good because gasvoda said so, then have a look of the recent hammers of gasvoda coins vs what he paid." you imply that you personally approach ancient coin collecting from an investment viewpoint. I don't. Whatever advice my dealer gives me about my maximum bid, I understand that it is based on current market conditions and those may change dramatically in the future. Whether or not I might sell the coin in the future for a profit or loss does not enter into my consideration for bidding on the coin, period. Of course, you're entitled to collect ancient coins based on their investment value and future appreciation, but this is not my personal reason for collecting.

You also write "It's clear for me that the recent prices are dictated by a few such advisors." This is simply an assertion that may or may not be supportable by factual data and statistical analysis, but my own observation does not support this assertion.

The final misconception I would like to clear up is your assertion that advisors "tell" their clients what to bid. This is simply not true. The role of an advisor in a collector's bidding limit is to provide advice based on current market conditions and other information (e.g., knowledge of other potential bidders) that aid the buyer in determining his/her maximum bid. No serious collector would ever accept being "told" what to bid.

 

So if you trust the auctioneers and their photos and descriptions why do you pay an expert for extra checking of what I referred to as hidden information?

Well if your coins hammer 2-5 times less of their hammers 2-3 years ago then somewhere in the loop there's a bad estimation.

 

Correct, you only pay them if you're successful. And sure, if they're an untrustworthy dealer, they'd encourage you to pay more or recommend coins they'd run up. But, good dealers will talk you off of buying coins more often than recommending you bid higher.

More than half of the coins I'd like to bid on, the dealers I've used recommend against buying for one reason or another. And I'm probably only successful on one fourth of the remaining half.

For this Zodiac coin, I first suggested the bid of $15K, and in the reply I posted, my dealer confirmed that it would make sense. I came to that number from looking at comparable coins through CoinArchives and, because the coin checked out in-hand (wasn't tooled, etc.) that value made sense to me. It cost me less than that as there wasn't an underbidder at that level (perhaps because they were bidding instead on the Pius Zodiac later in the sale which sold for $11K) but that's what it's worth to me.

There are times when my dealer tells me I'm too strong on a coin and it's not worth as much so I'll reduce my bid, or cases where I should be more aggressive. If you're working with someone trustworthy, they're going to give you good advice with rationale and data to back it up.

 

Again, there are some misconceptions in your post that I'd like to clarify.

You write "So if you trust the auctioneers..." implying that I don't trust the auctioneers if I use the services of an advisor. This implication is incorrect. As I wrote previously, I pay the advisor to provide expertise that I don't have, or may not have. The auctioneer and/or the auctioneer's staff may or may not have the level of expertise I need to purchase a coin for my collection. It would be irresponsible of me to rely solely on the auctioneer's catalog description and picture to make a decision on that coin, especially in the price range of coins that I collect. An expert dealer/advisor that I know and trust provides a level of due diligence that enables me to purchase a coin with a high level of confidence -- anything less would be irresponsible.

I don't use the word "hidden" because of its pejorative nature and implication that I believe something is purposely being kept from me. A more accurate way of phrasing this issue is that I'm looking for the most complete information as possible on a coin on which I want to bid.

You also write "Well if your coins hammer 2-5 times less of their hammers 2-3 years ago then somewhere in the loop there's a bad estimation." This is not accurate, since there are so many factors that affect the future value of a speculative investment such as coins, stamps, art -- in fact any collectibles -- that it's generally not possible to definitively state that a coin was overpriced at its hammer price in any given auction. Of course we all have our individual opinions about whether or not a coin is overpriced, but since I'm a collector of ancient coins and not an investor in their future value, a coin's future appreciation is usually irrelevant to me.

Like AncientJoe, my dealer has recommended against more purchases than he's recommended for. It is unfortunate that you don't appear to have had the experience of working with honest and ethical dealers and advisors, but they do exist -- not everyone is motivated solely by maximizing their profit and are out to cheat you in order to do that.

 

I hope you understand that by consistently using language like "misconception" , "not accurate", "investor" you are not discrediting my opinion. Because for sure you are not trying to convince me but rather appear rightful to the eyes of other readers. Trying to avoid situations like the one below doesn't make me an investor:

https://coins.ha.com/itm/greek/anci...ter-or-nomos-29mm-719-gm-12h-/a/3046-31021.s?

https://cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=374225

It's a free world and you can use whoever you want as an expert. As long as you suggest that it's a necessity and invite others to do the same, then you open the floor for different opinions.

 

Could you please point out where he suggested that retaining such an expert as an advisor is a necessity for anyone except perhaps himself, rather than something he chose to do given his own level of expertise and his level of expenditure? I didn't see that.

 

He is seconding the first post in this thread by AJ. I don't need to repeat it here.

 

Sheesh. I can do math but I have an accountant... why is that any different for coins? By all means, bid yourself if you want! Using a dealer is certainly not necessary - I often bid myself. But if you find that experts in a field provide some value, perhaps it could be worth using them. No one is pressuring you into using dealers and I deeply apologize if an offer of a recommendation somehow made it sound like I was pushing the notion of using experts on you or others... For this coin, I wouldn't have been comfortable bidding without someone viewing it in hand. That is all.

And, regarding the Gasvoda coin above, he built an academic collection of the coins of Sybaris and that's a very rare variety. The graffiti was disclosed and he owned CNG when his coin was re-sold, where he could have easily placed a reserve but still chose to estimate it at $500. Clearly his underbidder in the Heritage sale didn't show up but that's a chance you take selling coins at auction, especially more esoteric varieties. Sure, he lost money on it, but he knew was he was doing bidding on that coin and selling it at that level: he had to bid against someone else who knew what they were looking at to complete his collection by variety.

 

If that's what you're relying on for your assertion, it's awfully thin gruel. The fact is that there doesn't seem to be any basis for your assertion. You may think it's none of my business, but you're the one who made the assertion here, and thereby opened the door. To coin a phrase! In any event, for most of us, this discussion is entirely academic to begin with, because we never spend enough money on a coin to make it worth using an advisor, especially if we only buy from reputable dealers.

 

Up to the point where another poster intervened to defend his own advisor for reasons I cannot know, my only points where: auctions turned into casinos- see your bid of 15k which you won with 5k. I said the same for a coin I won recently with less than half of what I bid for. The hammer prices are dictated by advisors. Maybe yours, maybe the one defended by ides but mainly one which is none of the above. And that the lack of provenance doesn't guarantee lack of competition.

Every exGasvoda coin I have is spectacular and I bought it for much less of what he paid. Which makes him an honest person at least to my personal limited experience.

On the sybaris coin, I doubt gasvoda, his advisor or HA realised its importance. But I will post a separate thread on that coin.

 

In my experience, advisors have been far more likely to encourage me to lower my bids or skip coins altogether than to “overpay” on anything. An advisor’s goal is not to rip you off for a few hundred bucks on a given coin. They want to build a lasting relationship, and help build a collection. Years of trust and a long-term relationship are far more valuable than a fraction of a percentage point on a given hammer.

 

Nice catch AJ,

Hadrian Denarius Roma 119-23 AD Providentia standing
Reference.
Strack 76; RIC II, 134; BMC 307; RIC III, 556

Bust A2

Obv. IMP CAESAR TRAIAN HADRIANVS AVG
Laureate bust with drapery

Rev. P M TR P COS III in field PRO AVG
Providentia standing left, leaning on column, pointing to globe (with zodiac rings) by feet, and holding sceptre

3.50 gr
19 mm
6h

 

This coin is a beauty and a type I'd never seen before. Thanks a lot for sharing! I've also found the discussion on advisors very interesting - not something I'd ever thought about much before at my budget, but I've learnt a lot from some of the posts in this thread.

 

i am glad you like my coin

 

Hadrian Sestertius, Roma 130-38 AD Providentia standing
Reference.
RIC II, 772; C 1205; Strack 682; RIC III, 2384; Banti 614

Bust A1

Obv. HADRIANVS AVG COS III P P
Laureate head

Rev. PROVIDENTIA AVG S C in field
Providentia standing left, against column, hand with wand over globe with zodiac belts/lines by feet and holding sceptre

24.94 gr
30 mm
6h