how do you spot fake Trade Dollars, anyway?

SS66's 78S DDR looks genuine from the photos provided.
Jack's 78cc can be immediately outed as fake by the type 1 rev. If all you had to go by was the obv though, it's more of a challenge. The blobs by the 1 and 2nd 8 of the date are tip offs. There is some general weakness of the central design although not as bad as on the rev. The dentils actually look pretty good. Surfaces have that odd Beijing Mint Frost look to them.

 

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jeffB, posted: "Do you mean these?

YES! The coin is a counterfeit.

View attachment 1193802

"To my (extremely non-expert) eyes, the obverse and reverse look like two different coins. On the reverse, the rim and denticles are hammered, and the surface looks harshly cleaned but legit. On the obverse, the denticles are weaker and merge into the rim, and the surface on the lower half of the coin (especially around the date) looks like it was badly corroded."

One thing to look for (mainly in the past as the excellent fakes like the 1872 Jack posted will not be this way) is ONE SIDE of a fake is often sharper & better made than the other.

Malleus Maleficarum, posted: "Thanks for all the replies. Here's some new pictures to try to clear things up. View attachment 1193909 View attachment 1193910

Whenever a member asks for an opinion on authenticity, they need to take highly magnification images of suspected areas. For example, those pimples above are something suspicious that indicates the coin may be a fake.


SensibleSal66, posted: "Do grading companies weigh coins like this if need be ??" Yes if needed. This is borderline fake. If it still looked good under the scope, I might weigh it. One person I work with even weighs the badly made fakes to help convince a doubting customer the coin is not very deceptive.

 

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It's been said that there are more fake 1878-CC Trade Dollars out there than there are real ones.

 

As for the denticles on my coin. In hand, when looking at it on an angle. You can see they're worn. You can even see the shiny silver which makes it look like it was cleaned harshly. They don't have the same look of the weak denticles you see in many fakes. I do have a fake I purposely bought from China for comparison. That one has the traditional weak denticles which we all dread. Looking at both under a loupe, there's no comparison.

I believe the coin I have was cleaned harshly at one point years ago. It's a details coin, as was advertised.

But anyway. All this made me do more research on the Trade Dollar, which helps me on my trek to be an expert on them.

 

As for the so called pimples. One is a gouge/scratch. The other disappeared when I lightly rubbed it. It may have been something on the coin. There's wasn't a pimple on the coin as far as I could tell looking at in under a loupe.

 

Here's a blown up detail picture of where the pimples are supposed to be.

 

With them gone, that's one less minus. I don't lie the granular surface. So now, based on what you have done, I'll go from: Yes, fake to Probably Fake.

This back-and-forth is what often goes on inside the grading room with a deceptive fake, very badly made genuine, or harshly cleaned jewelry piece. The opinion is not FIRM until the coin is sent out. On occasion, the final opinion was not correct.

 

About 10 years ago I went to a local woman’s house to appraise a small collection. Said she attended local coin club meetings. She kept pointing me to one in particular, a 78cc Trade Dollar. I gave her no opinion at that time but took good photos. She really wanted me to cash her out, on the spot. Red flag!
Went home and researched it. Wrong rev!
Called me back a week later, irate. Told her the finding and that I wasn’t the buyer she was looking for. Boy was she mad then.
Click

 

I would think weighing every silver and gold coin would be policy, especially with the highly faked issues. I'd also like to see the weights printed on the Slab label.

 

You would think that makes sense. In fact, in the early 70's at the authentication service every coin was weighed. However, as fakes became better, the only thing a weight was useful for was to ID the coin.

Even today, most fakes can be spotted immediately by a trained authenticator who is familiar with the Country's coins. He/she knows what the genuine should look like and does not need to weigh the coin. A majority of the fakes posted/discussed on coin forums are probably underweight. The T$ in this discussion is one I would weigh.

This may apply to all coins but we did an experiment on US gold coins. The Mint has an official weight and tolerance. What we found was a bell shaped line. The genuine coins fell all along the line reaching the thin parts at both ends while the well made fakes of the correct ally clustered right around the official weight!

 

Really good information. Thanks.

 

Excellent info. What were the larger weight discrepancies you saw on genuine high grade gold coins. Half a gram ??

 

In all honesty, I don't remember.

So...I'll weigh a roll of AU $20 Saints for you on a cheap $20 digital scale. This may add some errors but the relationship of the coins should hold true.

Official weight: 33.436 w/.032 tolerance. Should see 33.468 to 33.404

Nice AU's ranged from 33.36 to 33.42 on a scale only accurate to tenths.

 

May I ask you for authenticy?
Do you see red flags?

 

Sorry, I cannot help. Whenever a member asks for an opinion on authenticity, they need to take highly magnification images of suspected areas. In this size image, the coin looks OK. One of the only things that may help with an image of this size is looking for matching marks.

 

I agree with insider about the 73-S above. Larger detailed images are needed. an edge view helps, too.

 

I see a couple of things which are concerning. But better pics would help.

The denticles on the obverse at the 5 o'clock position look weak.

The sheaf of wheat behind liberty is weak looking in places. Liberty's feet, legs and dress also look weak.

This is my 1873 NGC graded Trade Dollar for you to compare.

With more detailed pics, this would be easier to answer.

 

Thanks @Insider , @ksparrow and @Malleus Maleficarum .....better pics will follow soon.