1787 Massachusetts cent real or a good fake?

@Parthicus, I think the coin you've shown is a cent, not a half-cent. There was only one obverse die and two reverse dies for the 1788 half-cent and the coin shown does not match either. So, I think your coin might be Ryder 7-M, although that attribution is not certain.

 

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I am trying to put these pieces of info together. Since the devices on the Heritage offerings match the devices on the O P coin, is the coin from Parthicus' collection now suspect ? Is the O P coin legit ? Does the Ryder c4 die clear the water, or muddy it up ? You present a compelling case for your position if your position is as stated 1. you can not say for sure if the O P coin is counterfeit or genuine. 2. you do not rule out a modern day counterfeit 3. the Mass cent has several known contemporary counterfeits.
Is the Ryder c4 die critical to what I am missing ? How does it figure into this ? Thank you...martha

 

No, Parthicus' coin is a Massachusetts cent, not a half-cent. Therefore it does not even figure into this discussion of the OP's coin. However, I got fairly close to identifying the die variety when I was looking at it because I initially could not determine that it was a half-cent. So, I started checking to see if it could be identified as a cent by the die variety since the denomination could not be discerned from the photograph.

I cannot say if the OP coin is legit or not. But die variety evidence strongly suggests that it is not a contemporary counterfeit. Usually, back in those days, counterfeiters would make up their own dies to simulate a genuine issue and those counterfeit coins struck from counterfeit dies have usually been identified by numismatists. Counterfeit coins created during the time of the original coins are called "contemporary counterfeits". No contemporary counterfeits of the Massachusetts half-cents have been identified, that I can find. So, it very unlikely that the OP's coin is a contemporary counterfeit.

It could, though, be a modern counterfeit. Modern counterfeiters use various techniques to create dies using a genuine coin as the model. So, it is not unusual in the least to find modern counterfeits with the die variety characteristics of genuine issues. In fact, that is one of the methods used to identify modern counterfeits of older coins. But, it can be very difficult ranging to impossible to determine if a particular coin is a modern counterfeit, particularly from photographs. I am not an expert in identifying modern counterfeits, although some here are (Jack D. Young for one, who has multiple threads on Coin Talk on the subject). He has documented numerous examples of early American copper coins that are modern counterfeits that have been slabbed as genuine by the major TPGs.

When @johnmilton and others say the coin doesn't look genuine to them, I pay attention because these folks have a lot more experience than I do. I disagree with them only reluctantly and not categorically.

 

Thanks @Publius2 , you are correct, my coin is indeed a cent and not a half-cent. Sorry for any confusion this may have caused.

 

What was the weight and diameter of your coin?

I couldn't find an authoritative reference for the weight and diameter of the 1787 Ryder 4-C half cent but I did find two others:

1797 Ryder 1-D: 75 grains/4.86 grams and 24.0 mm
1797 Ryder 5-A: 77.9 grains/5.04 grams and 24.0 mm

Bowers says that the Massachusetts half cent and cent were the best struck and with the most consistent weight of the state issues.

 

Thank you Sir....martha

 

Yea, I'm with them too. It appears counterfeit....thank you Sir

 

Nice detailed analysis by Publius2. Nothing about the coin shouts "fake" to me , but I think having a specialist examine it would be a good idea.

 

The coin weighed in at exactly 4.8 grams my scale doesn’t go past that so pretty dead on. I do believe the words should be worn more then what they were but still everything about the coin was exactly how it was supposed to be and if you look at the third picture I posted after the post in the comments directly at the obverse everything from the star, the person, and the lettering is spot on, to me at least. The only issue is the amount of wearing around the lettering. I did not want to take any chances with my eBay store getting any more marks as I have one for a fake Morgan that I listed when I started out not knowing very small details to look at. I pulled the listing down just to be safe. I ran every test though from measuring weighing and using magnets everything was fine.

 

If I understand this correctly. The differences between the location of the devices on the obverse of the two coins can be explained as one of the coins was actually a half cent. And the other coin was a full cent ? And there was a separate obverse die for each denomination. And then of course the reverse could not share the same reverse die because of the difference in denomination ?

 

@Martha Lynn; The answer is yes.

 

Thank you very much for bearing with me sir. I do appreciate your time and knowledge....

 

Not genuine. There a lot of copies out there that have these dark, granular surfaces.

 

A stand up guy stands out. Thanks for taking a stand one way or another. I'm with you. Counterfeit. If I'm wrong then so be it. I've eat crow before and can do it again. The center of obverse and center of reverse on op coin is flat wore out. Yet look how well the devices near the outer periphery of the coin escaped such a fate. Does not look right to me. Not withstanding it is a dopple ganger for the Heritage specimen. Which could mean they did a darn good job of creating the copy.

 

To further clarify, or muddy it even more, even on the same denomination you can't really go by the location of the star, lettering or other devices. On Colonial and State coinages there are many die varieties. Every die had most of the lettering and devices added by hand resulting in different locations, and different orientation. This is how you identify the variety. It also means if you compare one variety to another, they will not match but can still be genuine. When comparing to verify authenticity, you first have to identify the variety to make sure you are comparing to the correct one. Hope this helps!

 

agree , Even in a Variety you find variations also depending on the Maker at that time .

 

Indeed sir, you have convinced me with your eloquent summary of facts you are obviously familiar with. That is why I visit coin talk. I consider my self schooled from your post. I have no more questions. Thank you.

 

Definitely ask whatever comes to mind. I've been collecting for over fifty years now and still have lots of questions!

 

Me : 13 year collector . Have a GREAT Day !