Fake braided hair large cent?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by AirborneReams, Oct 2, 2020.

  1. AirborneReams

    AirborneReams Supporter! Supporter

    Hello all! I recently made a good purchase and for a great price in my mind for the condition of this coin. But sadly as I listed last night almost an hour later a gentlemen reached out to me letting me know that this coin is a known counterfeit, I instantly pulled the listing and started a return process especially since I don’t know the most about these cents yet and the guy seemed very knowledgeable. But this morning I started looking at other 1851 ones and comparing it to the date and head variety, I was unable to find any issues on either side. The weight also bounced from 10.8 to 10.9 as the large cents are supposed to weigh 10.89. Maybe I took the pictures messed up? I really don’t know but I don’t think that this coin is counterfeit. Can anyone with more experience let me
    Know before I send this coin back for a full refund? Thank you! BF9D70C7-81AE-4BEC-8B3E-43993EE86F13.jpeg 8D0298F9-34F5-4B02-9632-9B784B7E7CD2.jpeg
     
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  3. Lawtoad

    Lawtoad Well-Known Member

    The 1851, 51 over 81 is a well known faked coin. This does not appear to be that coin (or the faked version of it). What about this particular coin were you told that made you believe it was fake?
     
  4. AirborneReams

    AirborneReams Supporter! Supporter

    Like I said I don’t know much so I kind of just assumed possibly it was. The guy that had messaged me told me that the head variety was wrong and so was the date for this year.
     
  5. Lawtoad

    Lawtoad Well-Known Member

    Taking a second look. The coin does look off. The date does not look right (smallish and placement is off) and the obverse dendricles are not right. The head is a bit suspect. I think others will chime in soon with a better answer. I collect these quite a bit but I am at work and do not have reference books handy. Here is another Coin Talk thread about an 1851 Large Cent authenticity.

    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/1851-large-cent-authenticity-concerns.307769/
     
  6. AirborneReams

    AirborneReams Supporter! Supporter

    Thank you very much! I just can’t believe that the weight and size is right on the dot but I don’t want to chance the eBay ban hammer. I will check this threat out!
     
  7. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    i know that there are many varieties of 1851 large cents, but looking at this one, the numbers on the date don't look like those the U.S. Mint used in the 1850s. Here is the coin that is in my "on again, off again" one a year large cent collection.

    1851 Cent O.jpg 1851 Cent R.jpg
     
  8. NOS

    NOS Former Coin Hoarder

    I'm not going to say definitively one way or the other as I'm not an expert but I will say it does look different from known authentic examples that I've seen. Namely, the date and there not being much of a spacious rim gives pause: https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-explorer/braided-hair-cents-1839-1857-pscid-120/1851-1c-ms-coinid-11892.

    My inclination is that it's a Chinese-made counterfeit that was produced within the last 20 years. It was likely placed into a rock tumbler giving it the dinged look that is particularly noticeable on the face. And then whatever formula of grit was used gave it the aged yet peculiar and uneven coloring.

    However, don't hold me to this; I'd wait for an expert opinion to be given before making any definitive decisions but this is what I suspect is the story with this coin.
     
  9. GH#75

    GH#75 Trying to get 8 hours of sleep in 4. . .

    Here's the the two together. I'll leave the rest to the experts. PSX_20201002_170553.jpg PSX_20201002_170415.jpg PSX_20201002_170711.jpg
     
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  10. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    rim and denticles look wrong to me, and I think that's what the guy was seeing but couldn't put his finger on it. I'm not an expert by a long shot but i've see a few in my time.

    is this the full coin or did you black out around the coin? there should be a lot more rim after the denticles until the edge of the coin. The rim got wider in 1843. the only one i see that looks like this is the cropped picture they use on the coinbook website which is clipping off a bit of the rim.

    Yours is more like the rim for the 1841, or 1842 but then the head would be the wrong size. the head is the right size for the coin, the rim isn't right.

    I'd need an expert in this area or at least someone more knowledgeable than me if this was "normal" to occur or some variety I can't find reference to.
    From what I know it's supposed to look like johnmilton's rim for that year.

    To me this is highly suspect, i'd pass no matter what.
     
    AirborneReams likes this.
  11. GH#75

    GH#75 Trying to get 8 hours of sleep in 4. . .

    Here's the reverse: PSX_20201002_171300.jpg PSX_20201002_171148.jpg PSX_20201002_171126.jpg PSX_20201002_171346.jpg
     
  12. AirborneReams

    AirborneReams Supporter! Supporter

    Thank you for the reply, yes my coins are all blacked out and sometimes slightly angled so there may be a missing small bit. I will attach an a picture that’s not cropped. 2B8B0633-A149-42BA-BD03-42A662F0F1CE.jpeg
     
    slackaction1 likes this.
  13. jerryc39

    jerryc39 Well-Known Member

    date looks way off to me
     
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  14. GH#75

    GH#75 Trying to get 8 hours of sleep in 4. . .

    I agree. PSX_20201002_180208.jpg
     
  15. AirborneReams

    AirborneReams Supporter! Supporter

    GH#75 likes this.
  16. AirborneReams

    AirborneReams Supporter! Supporter

    Thanks for your guys help, the coin is heading back to the seller. eBay had removed this listing I’m assuming it was reported. Interesting eBay did not contact me though..
     
  17. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    EBay is more interested in collecting fees, not combatting counterfeits. That's been true for many years. EBay mostly takes down counterfeit offerings when experienced collectors point them out to them. They don't have an active staff that goes after them. They are more responsive than they were years ago, but are not exactly like "bird dogs" on the issue.
     
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  18. AirborneReams

    AirborneReams Supporter! Supporter

    Seems like they only care about themselves I guess, they were on my ass quickly when I had listed some counterfeit (unknowingly) when I first started out which sucked. That’s why I was quick with this one. It’s pretty scary that this large cent weighed the exact weight and was the exact dimensions..
     
  19. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Yes, it's scary that so many of these counterfeits are on the market, and that the fakes are copies of common, not very expensive coins. That makes it bad for beginners and small collectors and obviously hurts the hobby.
     
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