Is it illegal to UNknowingly sell a counterfeit?

That makes my day!

 

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I bought the coin June 10th. It was an actual auction house so eBay and PayPal don't apply here. There were pictures posted online of the coin so it should be easy to prove the coin I have is the coin I bought.
I did try to get a refund but he refused. I have since made a complaint with the Professional Licensing Committee.
I think I mentioned this but I'm fairly new at collecting and selling coins. I did look at pictures of fakes next to the real thing and then compared those to this coin and I still didn't notice anything. Can someone tell me how they can tell that it's so obviously fake?
Thank you to everyone for all your help. It's pretty tough to loose $690 (after 15% buyers fee).

 

Thank you for posting...unbelievable how mu ch I learned from a pic!
Abe doesn't even look like Abe.
The aldege doubleD die goes one way at the top of the cent and another way on Liberty and the Year. Wow!!
And what the heck with the fake toning/stain??
Oh a diversion-- have you look elsewhere instead of the action on the cent..
Nice post for those to read and learn.
Sorry about your luck, but anything over a cool hundred, I need to know more before I buy. I no longer drink and bid at auctions===$$$$$. Good luck to you..thanks for the info

 

need some advice! my mother in law gave me 5 coins and told me to take them to a shop and sell them. i did, while in the coin shop, i watched them weigh the coins and put this little blue looking light on them. the coins were in hard cases with pf 70 ultra cameo. they never opened the cases in front of me. told me they were worth so much and offered to buy them. i have no idea how coin collecting works, or how there tested. i took the check and deposited it into my bank. the next day to coin company showed up at my home unannounced telling me this gold coin was fake, told me they contacted my bank. i told them i needed to do some research before i can make any decisions. they said after i left, they opened the case and found out it was fake.
what do i do, i dont know if they opened the case and switched coins, i dont even know if they paid me the right amount of money for said coins, i literally know nothing about this subject. can someone please shoot some advice? please?

 

If they had doubts, they should have opened a package in front of you. You are right to be concerned of them cheating you once they opened the case outside of your view.

It really matters here if it was an openable case or a slab here. A slab is sonically sealed, and them opening it destroyed it. Either way they had no right, they are professionals and you are an amateur, and THEY had the responsibility to authenticate. I would be mad as heck, and inform them they must have tampered with the coin after you left and you will sue if they stop payment of the check.

To me, the dealer had every opportunity to check to his hearts content in front of you, and that would have been proper. After the fact, and I view it as shady at the least.

I would love to hear a dealer's opinion.

 

He had opportunity to open and check them and do whatever he wanted to before completing the purchase.
He will likely have you charged with fraud/counterfeiting or try to get his money back and keep the coins and let you slide on criminal charges.

Your best course of action is going on the offensive. And charging him with theft by deception and fraud yourself I'd think.

This is going to depend a lot on the holder and the grading company used and if the number on the slab checks out on their database. It is what they authenticated it to be when they put it in the slab. So if it wasn't when he opened it, then he's the one that switched it. This really hinges on the reputation of the grading company involved that authenticated it.

One thing is for sure a crime occurred here in this story. Either you or grandma or who grandma bought from is a scammer, or the shop is a scammer, but it all depends. If it's a knock off slab from a grading company with no reputation whatsoever, then he should have been absolutely sure it was real before giving you the money not crack them out and check later. Which leads me to believe it was a reputable grading company that slabbed the coins. He trusted it and when he went to scrap or resell he realized it was fake.

My opinion doesn't mean much but there is a crook in this story somewhere trying to rip someone off.

If its the dealer, hire a lawyer and burn him every which way to sunday. If it was grandma throw her under the bus. If she got ripped off, maybe she knows where she got it from.

A's of now he's stopped payment. He has your stuff and his money. That's theft. If he's the scammer here he's going to switch the coins next. So this really does hinge on the grading company and their reputation to detect real from counterfeit and what it was when you sold it.

 

If they actually talked to YOUR bank before coming to you, they are at risk for a HUGE Defamation lawsuit. And you could add the bank(s) to the suit. I’d hammer em
My bet is they don’t have insurance to cover Personal Injury Liability like this.

Just a thought from a former insurance agent/broker

 

I wonder how the bank teller responded.... "Um, we are a bank. We just hold our customers money. You probably need to talk to, like, the police or FBI."

Seriously, what sort of actions does the dealer expect the bank to take? Banks don't put holds on people's accounts because some random person says the account holder committed fraud.

...it almost just sounds like a strong arm tactic... (ie, the dealer never talked to bank- just looking for scary words to force action)

 

He can put a stop payment on the check or recall the funds. And I'm sure that is what the op meant when he said the guy "talked to my bank".
Guy probably said "I called the bank, you ain't getting paid!"

No idea why he doesn't call the police about someone committing fraud or felony theft through deception , something like that. No idea why he'd come knocking on the door even really. There's no need to negotiate anything on his side he's got the coins and the payment, he's holding all the cards and if it were me, I'd drop the hammer and call the police and let them do the detective work.

Another thing. NGC (numismatic guarantee corp) specifically uses the term "Ultra Cameo" on their slabs. If the slab said that then NGC is the company that slabbed the coin.

If the dealer wants to discuss things, tell him it was authenticated and holdered by NGC geniuine and to stop playing what looks like a switch fraud game. Should have cracked it out in front of you before buying and tested it. He trusted their determination, take it up with them.

That said. I haven't seen the coin or the slab. For all I know the slab and coins are fake, still he should know damn well what he's doing. Not like they don't send out dealer alerts when fakes come up and how to check them, not like NGC doesn't have a warning when they know something is faked with any of their certification number's and when you look them up it says to "call us, possible counterfeit" when you look up the cert. Number. If he opened the case, it's his in my opinion, he's ruined the guarantee that the coin in the slab is genuine because it's not in the slab anymore. HE tampered with the slab.

Even if it was a fake, this was his mistake and negligence and he bought it. It's dirty to do what he's doing now in my opinion.
Anyone else that makes this mistake has to eat it. He's basically robbing you now keeping your items and the money.

Check your bank and see if the money is there.

 

The legality of a stop payment varies by state.
An illegal stop payment could be another cause of legal action

 

Another way to look at this. Had YOU gone into his shop, bought a gold coin in a slab, took it home, cracked it out then returned and told him it's fake and showed him a loose coin, he'd tell you that you bought it, all sales are final, and since you opened it, he especially can't take it back and to get bent.

If he were to sell you a fake, he's going to demand it still be in whatever packaging he gave it to you in, and for you to prove it's not genuine before anything, and still, I don't think he's going to give you your money back and claim "how do I know you didn't switch it out, it was real when it left here, I've been doing this for 20 years kid, I know real from fake!".

Even in a 2x2 that's stapled with a dealers markings, if the coin has been removed, the buyer has no recourse if it's fake in court, the dealer will claim it's real and you must have tampered with it after purchase and that's why it's not in the 2x2 he sold it to you in. and the court will agree. it's a "more likely to happen" based on the sides of the story bar to meet in a civil case and he's the professional/expert. Also likely why he's not pursuing it criminally, it's because he knows he messed up every step of the way as a buyer, did everything wrong and didn't protect himself. if he doubted it, he should have refused to buy it, if he doubted it after buying it, he shouldn't have removed it from the holder.

He should not have opened the slab. it's his now and the law/court would be on your side. he took possession of it in a slab guaranteeing it's authenticity. He removed it from that slab and claims it's fake, anything could have happened with it since he's removed it.

he's coming at you now because it's the only thing he really can do in my opinion, you sold him a (I think by your description) a NGC graded coin in a slab, he's coming at you with a loose ungraded coin. for all you know he mixed up two coins at his shop after cracking yours out to compare with one he had and is confused and the one he already had was the counterfeit and he's trying to pin it on your coin now to not eat the loss, intentionally, or unintentionally, and he just thinks that's how it went.

If he had doubts on it being genuine the responsibility was on him to check it and prove authenticity before purchasing it or refuse to purchase it if he couldn't, his next mistake was cracking it out of the slab destroying whatever provenance the slab gives it.
"buyer beware" is a really old, but true saying.

Demand payment in full, and if he won't pay, sue him in small claims court to get paid if it's within the limits of a small claims case. take him on Judge Judy. LOL. He should not have opened the slab, and he should not have bought it if there was any doubt in his mind about it. Simple as that. he's the professional, he's supposed to know what he's doing.
if a pawn shop pays $1,000 for a fake painting that's worth $10.00 they don't get to withhold the payment or stop payment. they get to eat the loss they are supposed to know what they are doing and refuse to buy it if they aren't sure about it.

 

That is totally different! Apples to Oranges

 

This has been a very interesting topic.

 

Look more like Bill Clinton with a beard than it does Lincoln.

 

why are people responding to a post from July 2015? Why did it pop up again?
Now I'm doing it. lol

 

Tj Shreves revived it last night with a question on the same topic.

 

But he wasn't the original poster for this thread. I noted the date of the original post but read through to hopefully gain useful information.

 

Thanks, I saw that.

 

There's no way to tell if what they are saying is true.
It is most likely a lie, as they would not have paid you if they thought the
items were counterfeit in the first place.
They are hustling you.
It's a shame that there are so many dishonest people in this business.
I would demand payment, or the items back if it can be proven they weren't switched. And proceed with legal recourse if they pretend like they aren't backing down.

Always get paid in cash for anything you are selling, car, coin, etc.
I don't care how much it is.
"It's too much I will write you a check." "No, go to your bank and cash the check." This kind of crap rarely happens in cash transactions.

 

One part of this story really hasn't been answered. An individual that writes you a check and you deposit it in your bank, does not have any rights to stop payment on your account. He can stop payment on HIS account, but if he does, HIS bank can be a part of this scam as well. They are required to have an affidavit as to why a stop payment is to be issued. Then the seller will have to answer all questions concerning the check. If the buyer has stopped payment on a check and it causes overdrafts on the seller's account, the seller is liable for all actions caused by the stop payment.