What is a counterfeit?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Insider, Sep 10, 2020.

  1. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title] Supporter

    Give up like I did. You’re wasting your digital breath.
     
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  3. TVO

    TVO Active Member

    Z,
    Everything you said is true :)
    Your first sentence is true because the second a coin is made with intent to deceive it is a counterfeit, not say a replica.
    Your second sentence is also true as it must be since intent can’t be changed by anyone retroactively.
    That is a very good start. You are doing better than some.
    You do not, however, appear receptive to the idea that the subsequent intent of the new owner changes the fraudulent nature of the coin in the here and now, so that it no longer fits the definition of a counterfeit.
    I have no Jedi mind tricks to help you understand that these coins, held by people with no ill will, are actually not the counterfeits you are looking for other than to say to try and equate the word contraband with counterfeit. Think of things that are legal in one State and not in others that can be moved from one State to the other and hence from one state to the other. Maybe that will help.
    And you can try to answer the question, what about a coin not made to deceive that is later used to deceive. How does it fit the definition and isn’t that really the issue since nobody thinks this is about anything other than DC and nobody thinks his pieces are counterfeit when he makes them. Or do I have that last part wrong?
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020
  4. TVO

    TVO Active Member

    If you are not learning anything (I know I am) or the discussion is not making you think of angles you hadn’t before or you are closed minded or bored or the like, then that is probably Sage advice.
     
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  5. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    I shall answer these posts but I'm going to work.

    Until then, before some took this thread off-track with opinions, I asked for the simple definition of a counterfeit. I wanted to see as many as we could post. My reason was to see if we "nobodies" could then have a discussion and come up with a simple definition we could all agree on. It has already been done but I want to see if it can be improved. IMO, an object is a counterfeit or it is not. Nothing else can change that so the reason it was made, how it is spent, held, or whatever is just a mound of "dirt" that hides the simple definition I'm seeking.


     
  6. TVO

    TVO Active Member

    You are entitled to your opinion just like my opinion is the back of the coin is just that the back. In your circles that is not correct. In my circles, you know the one that counts since we are the ones that hash out if a coin is counterfeit or not, a coin can change from one to the other. While there is a simple rule for what a counterfeit is, and that was given in many of the posts, the APPLICATION of that rule is messy. That is why trials are long, boring, drawn, out affairs that often appear to outsiders to be nothing more than a pissing match.
    You are wrong that a coin can’t change and I have spent lots of time patiently explaining it in many ways. The back of the coin is not the back anymore than you are right about counterfeits.
    You didn’t want to learn what a counterfeit was you wanted to tell us all your opinion. Well you have done that and it is wrong. Just like I was when I said the “back“ of the carr coin is pretty.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020
  7. Mike Thornton

    Mike Thornton Learning something new everyday.

    Okay, so your saying: If party A manufactures counterfeit "widgits" who he then sells to party B as authentic. At some point in the future, party B resells the widgits to part C, all the time being completely unaware they are counterfeit. Since party B had no intent to defraud party C, are the widgit's now miraculously authentic?
     
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  8. TVO

    TVO Active Member

    C owns a fake widget. It was counterfeited for sure and it will always be counterfeited. In some cases the cops could take it, if it looked like a real coin or bill or if there is a trademark issue (trademark is not my area but that is my understanding, Virginian might know more about that) but in some cases they would not because they are not counterfeit and hence not illegal. C would not be charged with anything for the same reason.
    Always counterfeited. Not always counterfeit.

    now my question
    Is a coin that was not counterfeited somehow counterfeit if you try to pass it even though the (most all) dictionary definition specifies it be MADE to deceive?
     
  9. ZoidMeister

    ZoidMeister Hamlet Squire of Tomfoolery . . . . .


    TVO,

    Your mental constipation on this topic is ASTOUNDING.

    Z
     
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  10. TVO

    TVO Active Member

    The funniest part was when Insider said he asked a simple question. :wideyed:
     
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  11. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    As succinctly as I can define it, a counterfeit is an unauthorized copy, deceptively intended to be mistaken for the copied item.
     
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  12. Mike Thornton

    Mike Thornton Learning something new everyday.

    I've heard, you can always tell a lawyer, but you just can't tell them much. It's turned into nothing more then a exercise in defining the term in a specific situation that forever changes.. boring now!
     
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  13. TVO

    TVO Active Member

    It’s absolutely not for everyone just as VAMs or Error coins are not for everyone and some think them boring. I suppose an outsider could make the same kind of comment about that that you made in your second sentence. They could also make the same kind of comment you made in your first sentence about the people who do find those things interesting.
     
  14. TVO

    TVO Active Member

    As this thread has shown, that is closer than the dictionary definition.
     
  15. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    For snackies you should have to do more than lick your chops . . . you should have to lick your ears.
     
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  16. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    Since "deceptively" is redundant, I suppose I should refine this a bit . . .

    A counterfeit is an unauthorized copy, intended to be mistaken for the copied item.
     
  17. ZoidMeister

    ZoidMeister Hamlet Squire of Tomfoolery . . . . .


    Funny, I just posted this elsewhere in response to similar . . .
    -------
    Meh, he's just trying to test out legal arguments for his boss on a coin forum. His thoughts on terminology really bear no importance. Trying to convince us that inaccurate terminology is superior to accurate terminology and getting huffy that no one is buying in.

    I call it "mental constipation" coupled with "diarrhea of the mouth." But other than that, he seems like a reasonably decent guy . . .

    Z
     
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  18. TVO

    TVO Active Member

    I would say that a bunch of nobodies (to steal a term from Insider) came up with a better definition than most dictionaries.
     
  19. Mike Thornton

    Mike Thornton Learning something new everyday.

    I thought the OP's question was interesting and they asked for what "our" definition was. Said we'd debate the definitions later. Well, I guess TVO missed that part and started the debate. I agree, he seems to be reasonable but also argues both sides of a statement. The conversation would have been better suited for a Debate Forum. Wonder if he was the Captain of the Debate Club in school and knocking the dust off his skills. Can't and wouldn't knock keeping ones tools sharp.

    I'd rather talk about the coins, not debate the terms numismatists use to describe them. I also don't think we need to debate the "legal" definition of counterfeit, we know what a counterfeit is. (A famous politician once said "I can't define obscene for you but I know it when I see it."), counterfeit is one of those terms. Unless one of us plans to counterfeit coins, expects to be arrested and is planning the defense now. Perhaps TVO is trolling for future clients?
     
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  20. ZoidMeister

    ZoidMeister Hamlet Squire of Tomfoolery . . . . .

    From his grammar and overall thought process acumen, I would say at best a jr. clerk, perhaps a law school student doing research - testing out his undergrad thesis.

    No self respecting member of the bar would conduct themselves in this manner on the interwebs, maybe he's a personal injury noob branching out . . . . .

    Z
     
  21. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    This thread plainly illustrates something I have written about many, many times - definitions, and the fact that everybody has their own personal definition for just about each word there is. And, that it is not unusual for those personal definitions to have little and sometimes nothing to do with listed, published, and widely accepted definitions.

    This is a huge, huge part of why so many things are misread and misunderstood. And not only with the written word but in face to face conversation. I would go so far as to say that it is far worse in conversation.
     
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