1878 Morgan for Eval

I dunno guys. There's "cleaning" using chemicals and abrasives or acids that peel of layers of a coins surface then....
There's "cleaning" where it's a quick dip to conserve the coin and only detracting surface contaminants are removed.

I mean one is clearly wrong, while the other is totally market acceptable and even done by grading companies for a fee without dinging the value of the coin, if the "cleaning" is possible to not cause more harm than good.

Every coin dealer is gonna tell you don't clean coins and every coin dealer when they buy your coins will select certain candidates to dip that would benefit and then sell them without a word said because it's acceptable. While if it wouldn't help, leave it as is.

That said no, "cleaning" shouldn't be done by a novice on coins of value, get all your practice and comfortability done on junk coins of little to no value of same material composition before moving on to valuable coins, learn what it can and can't do and how long you can do it before damaging the coin, because then you aren't cleaning, you are conserving or restoring just like the dealers and the grading companies are. A lot of coins should be left alone but there are some that benefit from it.

This isn't one of those cleaning jobs though, this would be a "done wrong" example.
And again I'd think it was an old cleaning and not something recent at all.

 

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Dead surface

 

While I agree with some of your post, the "quick dip" will also remove a thin layer from the surface. If TPG's have the coins "conserved" it is not cleaning. If the regular Joe cleans a coin conservatively, it is "cleaned" or "altered surfaces".
In the final analysis I concur with the periodic comments made here on CT and in the articles I have read, ie. the majority of silver coins have been cleaned at some time. And don't ask for corroborating support for my comment because I do not wish to spend the time researching.

 

Loss of mint luster

 

I won't

I know exactly what you are talking about. there's a whole discussion here on this lol, many of them, and there's a whole "acetone isn't dipping or cleaning because it doesn't remove metal"
it has a pH of 7 so technically it's not an acid or a base this is true, but it's a chemical exposure, hard to argue with that.
Personally, I like to start softest possible with distilled water rinse, and try acetone if that doesn't do it but I've just stuck with distilled water so far for myself.
the "dip" with a "cleaner" is a last resort situation, and it's situational. I mean if a coin is well traveled and worn like a VF, and you strip off the toning by dipping, there something obviously wrong there. it looks wrong to the eye and isn't market acceptable, However if it's an ugly toned MS66, and you make it blast white for the first time in it's lifespan, and it improves the situation and appearance of the coin, It can grade even higher on the eye appeal factor.

but this isn't all cases. there's just as many dipped coins that benefit from it as there are coins that were hurt by it. once you've taken off the toning, you can uncover hairlines that were unnoticed, or metal streaking that went unnoticed due to the toning you just removed. It doesn't always work out, and a dipped coin, I am told, rarely re-tones nicely and ends up needing to be dipped again, and again until it's overdipped and lifeless of luster. it's starts a chain of dipping better not to have started in some cases.

the fact is, people love pretty toned coins, or they love blast white clean appearing coins, everyone hates a "dog" that's ugly. If a coins been around 100 years, it's not going to be blast white without a cleaning happening. there's going to be some sort of toning happening because that what metals do over time. If you look at the greatest collections known, none of their silver is going to be blast white, and their gold won't be pristine either, there will be toning. if you bought one of those gems, and dipped it, it would be a disaster for the value and the grade. it would be detrimental.

and yeah, the reality is, most everything has been cleaned at some point to some extent. there's "looks good!" and there's "what the heck happened? noooooooo..." as the results.

But there's a market segment that wants clean blast white silver. there's no getting around that.
PCGS and NGC interprets "cleaning" as surface damage due to any form of abrasive cleaning. Same goes for dipping, if it's done improperly or too many times and damages the surface it's getting details grade, but they do straight grade dipped coins that should have toning after 100+years quite frequently.

And I'm just killing time at work during the pandemic slowdown. I can literally research and write a book currently hahaha.
it's cool for a dealer to lowball your uncleaned coin and dip it and sell it fr more, or lowball you for dipping a coin and then dip it themselves and mark it up in their case, or send it for conservation without details, and it's fine for NGC or PCGS to dip coins when necessary and remove toning.
But if us non-business folks do it, we get the pointy end of the stick, got it. LOL. The take away is, the TPGs and especially the dealers are going to figure out how they can make money or lowball you doesn't matter what you do, you could say "i didn't clean or dip anything" and they will reply "someone has".

Again we are back to "opinions" and then TPG is kinda worthless at solving a problem they went into business to solve.

 

I like the way you think.

 

VF details. Harshly cleaned. Possible 7/8 variety but hard to tell with the "gunk" on the reverse at the tail. IMO

 

I won't argue that is hasn't been cleaned, but I would only make a conclusion that it has been by seeing the coin in hand. Pictures can make a coin look worse than it actually is. It looks like a high VF details coin. VAM 164 (not a super rare one).

 

I like the VAM 164 call, Are you sure though, I'm not really seeing the other markers besides the R in Trust.

did you rule out VAM-185 and the VAM-186s somehow?

 

Wow, I had no idea that an old coin from a box would start so much back and forth discussion and debate! This is awesome! I can't believe that you guys are debating the actual die that was used for this coin! Fun times! Anyway, I got a new toy, so here's some more closeups. curious that the "r" looks more like an "i"

 

The "tiust" reverse is a result of a broken working hub, which means there are many dies across all mints that have this. There are a few dies that have a retouched 'r', including 78 VAMs 113 and 160 and I think 78-S VAM 104 (can't remember exactly). Some of the 79-S reverse of 78 also have a broken 'r'.

 

@DCG ...so now you see how exciting coins can be. @John Burgess @messydesk ...these guys know their stuff. Forum members only want to help you learn how to do things for yourself, and then, after a while, you will be helping others.

So study, learn and ask questions. BTW...regarding VAMs again...I look at the examples on VAM World and compare my coin for the different characteristics (attributes). When I find mine does not have a “ a tilted mint mark”, for example, I know to go on to the next. It’s not rocket science but it can be difficult...so take your time and have fun!…Spark

 

CLEANING by anyone other than a TPG (NGC) is a no no. They apparently have a magic wand they wave over the coin to conserve it (conserve=clean) but if you try to clean it with ANYTHING OTHER THAN WATER. The sniffer they use will pick it up and you get to pay for a coin that will come back UNC details.

 

I take it you have experience with that? Did you send a coin in that you had cleaned?

 

Question: You see that black spot on the reverse under the eagle? If it is ambergris, I mean Verdigris, Could you possibly use a Waterpik or some small water jet thing to clean it off? I have a number of coins with that stuff on them, and I don't want to scratch anything trying to remove it.

 

Because it's hard to remove the dirt from the areas mentioned. Experiment cleaning an old coin that has no numismatic value and you'll see how difficult it is to remove the dirt from certain places on the coin.