AAAUUGH!

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Bmagold, Aug 16, 2020.

  1. Bmagold

    Bmagold Active Member

    I intended to write this a bit earlier but I have been busy w/my mother having to put her in the hospital. I sent a coin known as the world's smallest coin aka. The " Panama pill " I paid PCGS to do some conservation or restoration work on it and have it slabbed and graded I was informed by another grading co. that they felt it could use it because it looked as if it had a residue however they could not slab or grade it as they didn't have a slab small enough to hold it. I was very excited to see the coin encapsulated along with the conservation work and grade. Well I finally got it back and was stunned to see that it has been condemned w/a detail cleaned. Can anyone help me make sense as to why there is a detail tag cleaned on my coin after I paid to clean it. I can only figure that the grader did not know it went thru conservation and was paid for. I don't think it can be determined that it had been cleaned before I paid for it to be cleaned otherwise why would they take my money and clean it and then turn around and label it cleaned unless their conservation works that way where they offer the service and take the money and the ruin any kind of value by labeling it cleaned cause that's not what I understood. If that is the case I never would have paid for the conservation service. Again please help me to understand how this makes any sense.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2020
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  3. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    I'll guess the cleaning was already there but hiding under the residue.
     
  4. Bmagold

    Bmagold Active Member

    Perhaps I will post the image of the coin in question it doesn't really look cleaned to me even after the conservation
     
  5. Bmagold

    Bmagold Active Member

    Here is an image of the Panama pill
     

    Attached Files:

    thomas mozzillo likes this.
  6. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    The obverse shows signs of cleaning but not anything that PCGS did.
     
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  7. Bmagold

    Bmagold Active Member

    I couldn't charge someone money to clean a coin and then turn around and tell the person that there coin was cleaned. Could you? The coin initially wasn't that dirty. I feel they would have noticed before they started. You state that it was not anything PCGS did as if you were there. How can you tell? My point is ethically it not a good or fair practice to take money from a customer or client do the work and then tell them the coin was cleaned when they were the last to handle it. Respectfully. Do you not agree?
     
  8. bradgator2

    bradgator2 Well-Known Member

    So you had them clean the coin, but dont want them to say it’s been cleaned on the label?
     
  9. kanga

    kanga 65 Year Collector

    I didn't know PCGS was in the coin "conserving" business.
    I thought only NGC did that through NCS.
     
  10. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    They removed the residue and that's what you paid for. They did the conservation work. They may or may not have been able to tell if the coin had been harshly cleaned before the work but the conservation still needed to be done.
    NCS/NGC would have handled it the same way. The services don't harshly clean coins and they can't fix a coin that has been harshly cleaned.

    From the images, I believe that someone worked on the coin before PCGS. Note the obverse fields in front and behind the head and to the right of the date. That's not something that the services would have done. It would be cool to see images of the coin before it was sent in.
     
    micbraun and rosethe like this.
  11. Rick B

    Rick B Well-Known Member

    Wow, that's even smaller than my 14 mm Great Britain 1818 King George III Maundy 2 Pence Silver coin
     
  12. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    It was cleaned at some point before you sent the coin in for cleaning and restoration. That's why it's labeled as it is.
     
    Insider likes this.
  13. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect since I was a baby

    It definitely was cleaned prior to conservation. I'm sure the coin looks better now than it did before conservation.
     
    John Burgess and Insider like this.
  14. coinquest1961

    coinquest1961 Well-Known Member

    It looks corroded to me.
     
    Insider likes this.
  15. Mountain Man

    Mountain Man Supporter! Supporter

    I think I'd call them and voice your concerns, hoping for a logical answer, but more importantly, take care of your mom. She is way more important than a coin, in my opinion. Wish I had just one more hour to spend with mine.
     
    Peter Economakis, Kentucky and wxcoin like this.
  16. Mr.Q

    Mr.Q Well-Known Member

    Mountain Man said it best. The coin may have been slightly enhanced but it looks like they may have been satisfied with the first deep cleaning? Momma first best of luck on both issues. God bless!
     
  17. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Take care of your mom, sorry about the coin, but many coins are either deliberately dirtied or toned to hide traces of cleaning or damage. Perhaps @Insider can comment.
     
  18. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    IMO: No, I disagree. The OP needs to "man up." PCGS claims to have conserved your coin and then graded it. That's what you paid for! Unfortunately, you picked the wrong people to conserve your coin.

    As for your coin, IMO, it was cleaned before PCGS got it. Most old coins have been cleaned in the past. Since we don't have a before image, there is no way to tell if PCGS added to the evidence of the old cleaning or not. One thing is 100% certain: Their employee did a very lousy job! The surface of your coin is STILL corroded and the amateurs' doing the work left several places with active green corrosion on your coin!

    I'm biased. As I have been conserving coins (CLEANING) professionally since 1972. It started out as removing the black crud around mint marks at the ANA's authentication service. Around twenty years ago I helped start NCS. Therefore, I don't recommend :muted: sending coins to "just :bucktooth: anyone" to be conserved.

    Obviously, no one can work miracles. The condition of the coin often indicates the probability of a successful outcome. That's why I refuse to conserve some coins because they will probably look worse. PCGS decided to conserve your coin. The fault I see with you submission is that the didn't finish the job! :jawdrop:
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
    coin dog likes this.
  19. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title] Supporter

    Do you have a photo of the coin before the conservation?
     
  20. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    PCGS doesn't clean coins, they conserve them or restore them, and if it were "cleaned" it means they were irreparably damaged previously and you will get 92'ed

    they charged you to stabilize the surfaces but previous damage is previous damage, and you should KNOW you sent them a coin that has been previously cleaned since that coin is dead and lusterless and covered in pitting and scratches.

    Even in the details of how this restoration/conservation works it says "All grades are possible including Genuine, Not Gradable." At least they gave you XF details.

    one more time, and I can't say it enough. They DO NOT "clean" your coin, or doctor the surfaces. My opinion, you expected them to do something they clearly say they do not do that's as good as that coin is going to ever look. Below PCGS restoration do's and don'ts.


    "Submitting a coin for PCGS Restoration in no way guarantees the upgrade of your coin. If the coin is already in a PCGS holder, it is guaranteed not to downgrade, nothing more. Through our restoration service, PCGS is committed to preserving and restoring coins to their original and natural condition.

    Toning
    • PCGS Restoration will not remove original toning simply to make a coin white.
    • PCGS Restoration will never add toning to a coin.
    • In cases where PCGS determines that removing toning is necessary and desirable and will not detract from the coin, it may be done. This type of toning may be the result of improper storage, interaction with corrosive materials, or a stain due to an accidental spill.
    Surface Contaminants
    • PCGS Restoration will remove any contaminants that are determined to have been deliberately and artificially applied. Examples include putty, dumdum, grease and other substances known to be used by “coin doctors.”
    • Restoration will remove contaminants introduced to the coin's surface through improper care or storage. Examples include PVC or Verdigris.
    • Dirt or debris can often be removed through a gentle rinse.
    • PCGS Restoration will never add any substance to the surface of a coin.
    Spots
    • Spots on coins can be the result of a variety of causes. Many spots can be removed, yet some cannot be removed without damaging the coin.
    • PCGS will not attempt to remove a spot unless it is determined that the spot significantly detracts from the coin's overall appearance or is active and will continue to grow.
    • PCGS will not attempt to restore a spotted coin if that in our opinion, a spot is so deep that removal would lower the coin's overall condition.
    • Older spots such as old spittle or old thumbprints often cannot be removed without stripping the coin's original surface and will not be attempted.
    • Newer contaminants such as recent fingerprints can be removed. Also, certain spots due to corrosive interactions can often be removed without impairing the surface.
    Metal
    • PCGS Restoration will never add, remove or alter metal. This includes engaging in well-known “coin doctoring” practices such as smoothing, whizzing, polishing, engraving, etc.
    • Issues such as scratches, dings, planchet flaws or bending will not be addressed. If it is determined that a coin suffering from one or more of these problems does not have other issues that can be addressed through Restoration, the coin will be returned as is."
     
    coin dog likes this.
  21. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    After they conserved it, there was evidence of a prior cleaning (from before they got it) so they labeled it details cleaned.

    A service was requested, and the services was performed. Unfortunately it revealed something that caused it to be labeled as cleaned. But you still owe for the service performed. Say you sent in a coin that had obvious cleaning and asked for conservation. They would still have performed the work, it still would be labeled as cleaned and you would still be charged. Its just like in the early days before details grading, people would send in coins that had problems for grading. Then they would get them back in a bodybag instead of a slab but the service still charged them. they had provided a service. They had examined the coin and rendered on opinion The fact the coin didn't come back slabbed didn't meant they didn't owe for the service. Although a lot of people thought it was wrong, after all the sent a raw coin and got a raw coin back but still had to pay for it.
     
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