CAC article- Nov.08 Coinage

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Vess1, Nov 29, 2008.

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  1. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    Vess

    If you think grading is more mystical than any other business enterprise then your being gullible

    Ruben
     
    mrbrklyn, Dec 1, 2008
    #61 + Quote Reply
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  3. rzage

    rzage What Goes Around Comes Around .

    Then brand them suckers .
    rzage:):hatch::hammer:
     
    rzage, Dec 1, 2008
    #62 + Quote Reply
  4. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    or reslab the coins?

    Imagine that. Putting out an informed opinion on the coin rather than the grade of the coin.

    Ruben
     
    mrbrklyn, Dec 1, 2008
    #63 + Quote Reply
  5. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    He really isn't Ruben. The business aspect is not mystical, but the grading process is. And that's the part you aren't getting.

    It was touched on earlier, fractional grading - that's what CAC does. They recognized the niche and the need to have that niche filled, so they stepped up and filled it.

    And that niche is this - there are way too many collectors out there who do not understand that not 64's (or take your pick) are equal. They just aren't and they never will be because there are too many different criteria that make a coin a 64 and not all coins have the same equal criteria.

    What you are wanting, or saying is needed is more grades. So that instead of having basically 3 grades within each grade, suc as a 64a, a 64b and a 64c - you want to have the 64c just be a 64. The 64b be a 65 and the 64a be a 66. But that isn't the system we have. We have a system where there really are 3 grades within each grade. And so CAC satisfies the need for the collectors who cannot differentiate those grades within grades. They tell you which coins are A's and B's.

    To me this is really kinda funny Ruben because you are just like all the folks who were clamoring for more grades 25 - 30 years ago - before the TPG's even existed. If you go back a bit over 30 years ago, there was only 3 MS grades. Then we had 5, then we had 7, and now we have 11.

    So, we can have a company like CAC and stick with our 11 MS grades - or - we can change the neitre grading system again and have 33 MS grades. Then we wouldn't need a company like a CAC.

    That is until somebody decided that this new 74 was just a tiny bit better than that other 74 over there. And then we would need 66 MS grades.

    No, I think what we have now is just fine. And Ruben, you can't validate something that is subjective. And grading a coin using the market grading system will always be subjective. Sure, you could valide the number of marks and their locations, you might even be able to validate quality of strike. But you will never, ever, be able to validate luster and eye appeal. Those are the mystical (to use your word) criteria that are all important to grading. And those criteria are entirely subjective and not capable of being validated. No matter how much you wish or claim they could be.
     
    GDJMSP, Dec 1, 2008
    #64 + Quote Reply
  6. Vess1

    Vess1 CT SP VIP Supporter

    Well said! :thumb:
     
    Vess1, Dec 1, 2008
    #65 + Quote Reply
  7. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member


    No - its the part your not getting. There is NOTHING special about coin grading that makes it any different than any other business activity...

    nothing.

    You want Special and Magical? Try designing robots for space flight, pharmacuetical discovery and development which makes coin grading look you preparing chicken soup, art archival services for major museums, economic forecasting, movie development, in fact, every field has specializations that all function with the same level or not great level of expertise be thousands of levels, tan coin grading and all function as standard businesses.

    This argument really get to the point of debating if the world is round or not. It's round and CAC is a scam and Coin Grading is a STANDARD business practice.

    Want to grade something difficult? Figure out the value of NY real estate, or the meaning of geographical properties of potential oil deposits.

    Ruben
    Ruben
     
    mrbrklyn, Dec 1, 2008
    #66 + Quote Reply
  8. Vess1

    Vess1 CT SP VIP Supporter

    The only thing special is the magnitude to which you are willing to blow the theory of grading out of proportion.

    Several people have explained it to you from several angles in great detail, yet you choose to plug your ears, close your eyes and make noise so you can maintain your flawed opinions.
     
    Vess1, Dec 1, 2008
    #67 + Quote Reply
  9. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    Vess - your wrong, but I love you anyway. If you were even close to being correct every econonist treasteist and work of business management and evaluation would need to be burned.

    It wouldn't hurt for you to pick up a few classes on busines development and economics before flauting oviously incorrect statments.

    Ruben
     
    mrbrklyn, Dec 1, 2008
    #68 + Quote Reply
  10. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member


    This is wrong it breaks my heart to read it. Everything is subjective and anyone wholes ever done any validation and scientific would know. In fact, your coin grading has more precision than the results of a qulaitative analysis I ran on a new substance just a short tie ago.


    CAC grades the graders. I'll repeat the lynchpin economic FACT about CAC that makes them a SCAM. There is NO mthod of grading that a TPG can use which CAC can't come back on and claim to be able to diferentiate. That GRADE THE GRADERS. that is a classic form of market manipulation which is a scam.

    There is no market force to keep CAC honest.. There only path to profitability is to create diferentialtions at the highest marketable levels between grades of the graders product.


    that is a classic definition of a SCAM.

    O+O...........:headbang:

    Ruben
     
    mrbrklyn, Dec 2, 2008
    #69 + Quote Reply
  11. Speedy

    Speedy Researching Coins Supporter

    Ruben,
    One day you are going to be eating alot of crow.

    Speedy
     
    Speedy, Dec 2, 2008
    #70 + Quote Reply
  12. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    Sure there is Ruben - there's people like me. And my grading skills are mimimal compared to a lot of them. And if you think we don't make a difference and have an impact - you're not as smart as I think you are.
     
    GDJMSP, Dec 2, 2008
    #71 + Quote Reply
  13. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    Not the first time I've heard thaat ;) Google it.

    Its not a kosher bird

    Last tme I was told that I replied:

    "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.<
    You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one."

    That engineer is now one of my best friends and confidants.

    BTW - If that means your going for your MBA -i.

    I want to congradulate you! I seriously think you need that business degree.
     
    mrbrklyn, Dec 2, 2008
    #72 + Quote Reply
  14. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    Sounds lie what Sun Microsystems said about Stallman and Linus...

    You better have some deep pockets ;)

    Ruben
     
    mrbrklyn, Dec 2, 2008
    #73 + Quote Reply
  15. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    I'm sorry Ruben but most of what you post on this site sounds as if you are a bit new to this great hobby. You ask others to learn from you but just how long have you been in this?
     
    ldhair, Dec 2, 2008
    #74 + Quote Reply
  16. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    How much economics background do you have? Your question, honestly, makes me think you don't have basic understanding of markets.


    Let me know if that is the case and I'll point you to some good sources to start learning from so that you can better understand the ecology that coin markets exist in.

    Over time you will learn that its not unique.


    Ruben
     
    mrbrklyn, Dec 2, 2008
    #75 + Quote Reply
  17. Speedy

    Speedy Researching Coins Supporter

    Ruben almost never answers any questions....

    I believe from older posts he said that he used to collect years ago, and then just lately 2004/2005 started looking again.
    I'm sure if this is wrong he will step up and let me know :D

    Speedy
     
    Speedy, Dec 2, 2008
    #76 + Quote Reply
  18. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    I've been collecting continually since I've been 6...and not just coins, but stamps, comics, art, vases, photography, stickers. But you know the question is dishonest, right? The supposition that coin collecting markets, businesses and grading can't be understood from standard business and economic principles would get you laughed out of any business school or economics department of any creditable school.

    I'm trying to be respectful about this and even kind but frankly, it is ignorant and egotistical to think that coin grading and coin markets are so unique that standard economic and business tools can't be used to assess the coin business.

    People shouldn't beat their chest so hard, they can fracture a rib.

    Ruben
     
    mrbrklyn, Dec 2, 2008
    #77 + Quote Reply
  19. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Ruben,

    It is posts like this that cause members to, let's see, post a copy of their degree. What are you going to do if Larry tells you that he is an Economics professor at a major accredited University. On the internet, you can claim to be an expert in any field because there is no way for the other person to refute your claim.

    Just saying!
     
    Lehigh96, Dec 2, 2008
    #78 + Quote Reply
  20. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    I hope he does because then we can take of the gloves, dispose of the niceties that allow people to pretend untruths are truths, and dig right into the literature. I have an advanced degree in industrial design of drug products that involves, in addition to a PhD level of Physical Chemistry, but also advanced hands on knowledge of industrial production and business modeling and, oh yes pharmaceutics and medicine.

    And thats aside from my living experience. I don't need to post my credentials. My background has moved past the point where it matters. The contention that grading coins is more unique than hundreds of other more detailed and subjective tasks is absurd. And to suggest that you need years of myopic coin collecting experience to recognize this is rude.

    Ruben
     
    mrbrklyn, Dec 2, 2008
    #79 + Quote Reply
  21. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Well, I know one thing. I will have a front row seat for this one. Ding Ding. Let round 1 begin. LOL
     
    Lehigh96, Dec 2, 2008
    #80 + Quote Reply
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