A question for dear colleagues

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by paschka, Jul 29, 2020.

  1. Pavlos

    Pavlos You pick out the big men. I'll make them brave!

    I know exactly what @paschka means. He doesnt say the coin was in a collection for 2500 years. He means it as a statement, was it in a collection for 2500 years that it is preserved so nicely? Since there is no other way it is preserved so nicely. It is not really a question, more out of disbelief.

    I actually wonder as well how it is possible a coin is so perfectly preserved for 2500 years. It is not the great style I am talking about but the condition. Was it put in a safe directly after mintage that it looks like it is struck like new.

    Perhaps Mr. @Barry Murphy can provide us with some insights?
     
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  3. paschka

    paschka Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
  4. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    I've had some coins in my collection for over 1,000 years, or at least it seems that way.
     
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  5. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    But, humor aside, I would speculate that the coin in question was probably part of a hoard that came to the market in the fairly recent past. I think coin collectors, 2,500 years ago, were extremely rare.

    As I recall, some Romans collected coins, mostly Greek coins, but these collectors were limited to the extremely wealthy or imperial segments of the Roman population at the time.
     
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  6. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    We are probably all familiar with the questions surrounding the authenticity of some of the coins sold by Lanz, at least in recent years. This coin, though, was apparently auctioned by Lanz back in 1994 (Auktion 70), and has a provenance that goes back further than Lanz, namely to "the famous Margaretha Ley collection." See
    https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/an...end_greek_and_roman_coins/514180/Default.aspx (a past sale of the catalogue from that auction, stating that "Mrs. Margaretha Ley was a famous model and designer and also founder and owner of Escada, German women's apparel company. She died in 1992"). Of course, I have no idea what assurances of authenticity a provenance back to that collection provides, or of the nature of Mrs. Ley's expertise as a numismatist.
     
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  7. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Augustus was known to give gifts of old coins to diplomats and other prominent visitors.
     
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  8. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't be surprised if Claudius also did this to some extent, as an extension of his historical works, but this is speculation on my part.
     
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  9. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    I'm shocked at how much the bidding is on this coin (nearly $5,000!) But I would imagine it was just squirreled away when it was brand new, and just like squirrels, sometimes people don't come back for their stashes...

    An interesting point was made regarding provenance of any object to antiquity. While it's pretty easy to say that no coins can be traced back to the day they were minted, I believe that to some extent, many objects could be said to have never been "lost" in the sense that we think of it. Many European churches house religious relics that have been in the care of those churches since they were built in late antiquity. The Pantheon is one of the best-preserved ancient buildings specifically because it has been under the continual care of at least someone since it was built under direction of Agrippa.

    Also, it is easier to find both objects and families that can trace their lineage to ancient times in Eastern Asia, where the upheavals of the last two centuries haven't disturbed the general populace quite as much as the fall of Rome uprooted Europe. Offhand, a number of individuals can trace their lineage all the way back to Confucius with zero breaks in their lineage, and the Three Treasures of Japan have been the personal property of each successive emperor since at least late antiquity (although it is theorized that only the jewel is still the original; the sword and mirror may be replicas).
     
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  10. Clavdivs

    Clavdivs Well-Known Member

    Are there any sources for this? Not that I doubt it.. I have just read this a couple of times on CoinTalk and would like to know more.
     
  11. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    I'll try to look for the source when I have more time -- I've seen the story numerous times in articles about the history of numismatics, but don't remember which ancient source (if any) was cited.
     
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  12. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    I'm pretty sure Suetonius said it, more along the lines of "Augustus liked to play along with the silly spirit of Saturnalia, and gave out old coins along with other" than "Augustus was an avid coin collector."
     
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  13. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    You cannot compare the surface quality of ANY Syracusan decadrachm with the surface of the piece in the OP! We are not discussing "artistry" here. The coin in the OP is well executed and beautiful - so what. So are some Drag Queens! :oops:
     
  14. TJC

    TJC Well-Known Member

    I do not know a lot about the OPs coin, but in relationship to ancient coins being in "mint" condition I have been told that some coin types did not circulate. Rather they were often kept together and traded in large sums moving from one treasury to another or were just stored as wealth.
     
  15. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    You're right:

    https://lexundria.com/suet_aug/75/r

    The Life of Augustus, 75
    Suetonius translated by J. C. Rolfe
    75 Festivals and holidays: he celebrated lavishly as a rule, but sometimes only in a spirit of fun. On the Saturnalia, and at any other time when he took it into his head, he would now give gifts of clothing or gold and silver; again coins of every device, including old pieces of the kings and foreign money; another time nothing but hair cloth, sponges, pokers and tongs, and other such things under misleading names of double meaning. He used also at a dinner party to put up for auction lottery-tickets for articles of most unequal value, and paintings of which only the back was shown, thus by the caprice of fortune disappointing or filling to the full the expectations of the purchasers, requiring however that all the guests should take part in the bidding and share the loss or gain.

    ****

    Which raises the question of "what kings"? The Kings of Rome (to the extent any of them actually existed) issued no coins.
     
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  16. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    I assume you're implying that the coin in the OP is a fake? If so, I don't think your analogy is apt: drag queens aren't trying to deceive anyone. Counterfeiters usually are.
     
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  17. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    That was certainly true of some ancient coins contemporaneously, but the question is whether any genuine ancient silver coin could still look that now. Even after cleaning.
     
  18. Aestimare

    Aestimare Active Member

    My feeling is that Lanz and ANS ex. share the same reverse, but not the same obverse. And maybe the BnF de Luynes https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b11316642x and ANS http://numismatics.org/collection/1944.100.10520 ex. share the same (maybe reworked) obverse, but not the same reverse.
    upload_2020-7-31_2-13-43.jpeg

    I have superposed the LEU ex. to the Lanz ex., and I believe they both come from the same obverse and reverse dies. You denoted something wrong with the lips of the goddess, and I was dubious about the tongue of the gorgon…
     
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  19. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    I'm just looking at the gorgoneion's tongue. The end appears to be protruding over the field of the flan, which seems, from the image's angle, to be perfectly flat. How could that be done? Wouldn't it be expected that the underside of the tongue would have raised metal, since on striking the die would force the metal up? Am I missing something?

    I am not familiar with this issue, so I'm probably just mindlessly speculating.
     
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  20. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    So are you implying that you now believe that the coin in the OP is genuine?
     
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  21. Aestimare

    Aestimare Active Member

    Compared to the tongue of the LEU ex., the Lanz ex. is missing some metal on the right border. A stigmate can be seen, perceptible from this right border to the lips.
     
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