How about this 1804 Draped Bust Dollar?

So here are some pics of a coin I have had for a long time...what do you think?????

 

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Ok,,,got the pics uploaded...now what do you think about this coin??:desk:

 

Welcome!!

There is an estimate of 15 for the mintage of those coins, all proof. http://www.coinfacts.com/silver_dollars/draped_bust_dollars/draped_bust_silver_dollars.html Check it out on CoinFacts.com. I believe this is one is probably not real. But there is always the possibility that I am wrong. If you could provide larger pictures, there are ways to tell if it is real, and people here who can help you.

 

Thanks for the reply....wow 28 views and only one reply...I thought it would get more....I do know what they are worth and the last on at auction sold for 1.8 million...but Im curious on how,,,why,,,,and what makes this a fake...I have compared it to many pictures and original photos and it looks pretty good for a fake....Im sure it is...but Im not a professional either....Im curious why it was made and it looks like one of the fakes from the philipenees, but it doesnt have the I at the end of AMERICA like the 1800 silver dollars (AMERICAI) ,,,Im sure the wear has something to do with it....but what is it?:goofer:

 

The reverse of the coin is a definate cast. What are the likely odds of any person owning a million+ coin?

I know, there are plenty of stories of "my dad had this coin in his collection for several years" etc, but age isn't the problem. Counterfeit coins have been around too long and that particular 1804 dollar coin is one of the highest counterfeited coin.

 

Oh im sure it is fake...I just find it amazing how they do that.....Ive had it for about 25 yrs....got it from a old coin collector I knew....Just dont see how they make those and what the purpose of it would be...

 

It's just too common to see such counterfeit coins.

An excellent example is this link: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/reidgold/draped_busts/page_7.html

 

yes I have seen those sites with those examples on them...very interesting how they can make them.....I do find it interesting that the coin if real should weigh 29.96g, and be 39-40mm in diameter....My fake weighs that and measures that too...I think it looks good for a fake witht he wear and all...but then again...you all are the pros.....I still would like to know when it was made and wear it probally came from....Thanks for your replies....and happy new year

 

Most but not all of the counterfeited Rare Coins are produced in Shanghai, China! There are other places that they are counterfeited, even here in the good old U.S. of A.! The old and even some newer counterfeited coins were and are produced by making molds from one of the many fakes that are out there. They then make up a composition of Silver and tin; Silver and Lead; Silver, Lead and Tin or other variations of compositions melted down then pour the melted composition into the molds. Since a molded counterfeit usually will come out slightly smaller than the coin used to make the mold and it is very hard to get the exact amounts of composition to come up to the weight of an original or restrike 1804 Silver Dollar, that is why they usually weigh significantly different from a genuine coin.

There are other methods of producing counterfeits as well, such as electrotype and others! The Chinese and others can produce a counterfeited coin for only a few dollars (don't know the Chinese equivalent) and if they can dupe someone into purchasing it for hundreds or thousands of dollars, then that is why they do it. Just like any other crooks, greed is the motive! In any given month, there are probably 10 to 50 or more counterfeited 1804 Silver Dollars as well as hundreds of other counterfeited Rare Coins offered up for auction on eBay. Most but not all of these Sellers are located in Shanghai, China. It is really sad because there are also good, honest and honorable Coin Dealers in Shanghai that are losing business due to these Sellers of counterfeited coins and the fact that many folks stay away from any Coin Dealers (Sellers) in Shanghai.

If your coin is the same size and weight of a genuine (Original or Restike) Silver Dollar and you are still not sure of the diagnosis given here on the Coin Talk Forum, then seek a Professional or Grading Service to have the coin checked for authenticity. For some reason I could not view the larger pictures (if you downloaded larger ones besides the smaller ones) and I could not make any type of determination about the coin's authenticity!


Good luck...Frank

 

Thank you frank for taking the time to explain that for me. I do appreciate that. Yes I have see them on ebay, and there is a fake on there right now for 1.8 million...and Im sure mine is not real but just find the weight interesting and the wear on it....plus there was only like 15 or so anyways,,,,Well thanks for the input here and I will definately be checking back here on other coins I might have.

There is a group of guys out my way that use metal detectors to find stuff and they have come up with some very interesting items. One found a old spanish sword in San Clemente, Ca at the beach and sold it to the city museum for about 2500.00. He also found a old spanish handgun that he ending up keeping. It is amazing what you can find out there. Well happy collecting and happy new year. Thanks again.

 

Lets see if I can get some bigger pics up?

 

Its not all that easy....fakes are sometimes the same weight....even made out of the same metal a real on would be....they can be the same size and have wear on then....no guy that is faking a coin over 200 years old would want to try to pass one off in Unc-circulated grade....that would be a tip off....there are many ways to get wear on a coin.
from your photos I would say Cast Copy.....but as its been suggested...find a dealer in your town...and take it to him and have him look it over....we don't have the coin in hand so we can say for sure...just what we see....and photos can change many things.

Speedy

 

I would suggest getting some photos of the real 1804 Dollars that have been sold in the past and seeing how the detail matches...the 8 looks funny for some reason...but then I haven't seen anything but the photos of the real ones.

Speedy

 

Yes I have compared it to some of the real ones from those other sites. Yes the 8 at the bottom did look a little different and on the back if you look at the arrows in the birds claw, the one arrow is a bit past the letter U and on the real one it looks just a bit before the U. I will have to post the pic of the real one I found online. Thanks

 

here are some pics of a real 1804

 

Just like Speedy said, it is very hard to tell if a coin is a fake unless you have it in hand and sometimes not even then! Yesterday, a gentleman tried to sell an 1866 "Seated" Half Dollar for $125 to my friend who sets up a Flea Markets and Gun Shows. Luckily I was there at the time and told my friend and the gentleman that the coin was a counterfeit. The coin was in a clear Grading Service type holder, probably to keep anyone from measuring and weighing the coin for an authentic size and weight! The coin was a medium dull gray in color, the entire surface and details were grainy and the edges of the details a legends were not sharp as they should be if minted from a Die.

It appears that the entire Date of your coins has been recut as well as some of the details on the Reverse including the arrows! The Date is definitely too upright and not slanted as it should be! I would guess that it was produced from a mold and sometimes the cast does not come out right due to air pockets, etc. and the Counterfeiter will fill the bad spots with the cast material and then recut some of the back out but the Date may have been pressed in with some sort of stamp.


Frank

 

Very interesting Frank how you have such an eye for that stuff....I guess when you are into collecting such items you would know your stuff just as any other pro would. Just seems like it takes years of experience and collecting to know what you know....My hat is off to ya for that info...Now the people who make these interest me too...if they spent all that time and energy doing something positive,,,this world would be a better place.:rolling:

 

I'm pretty sure its a fake....the date is totaly wrong...the 8 and 0 show it the most....and I think that others things are wrong too....
I still say that if you can take it to a trusted dealer in your town.....

Speedy

 

yes I have seen those sites with those examples on them...very interesting how they can make them.....I do find it interesting that the coin if real should weigh 29.96g, and be 39-40mm in diameter....My fake weighs that and measures that too...I think it looks good for a fake witht he wear and all...but then again...you all are the pros.....I still would like to know when it was made and wear it probally came from....Thanks for your replies....and happy new year
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Waw, at least I've found the same coin in USA...
I've the 1804, and I'm so far from USA, I'm in Indonesia, and this coin keep for long time, almost 90 years old. All of you in USA juge this coin is fake, and we keep this fake coin for more than 90 years old.
(I've attachement the image )
I ask so many expert, why this coin in samosir island for a long time, and they said I lie, cover a story, bla-bla-bla, they think I want to sell it, it's fake, not gununie.Well I've test the coin with acid ( standar gold test ) result, the coin was made in silver & cooper, and the expert said I lie, bla-bla-bla.
May be the just not know what I want. I just want to report that the rare coin was land in samosir island, north sumatra Indonesia, if this fake, so they was fake for a hundred years. May be you not to trust me, but I'm telling you the true.
If I got the other rare coin in my Island, I will not tell you in the USA. I'm just know this coin valuable for 1 month ago....

ps. my mother lagguage is Indonesia.

regard thank's