hi....I realize grading is subjective...among dealers as well as collectors....yet per the numerical scale isnt 60 and above uncirculated?...example: I attended a show this past weekend...a certain proof quarter went for "x" dollars in ms 63...and a 3rd of that cost in ms 60. but he said I would have a tough time finding it (in ms 60) because it would be scratched, mishandled or even "circulated"....would that not by definition make it less than an ms 60?...and if unc what is the difference between an ms 60 and 63?.....clarification?....thank you.....Jimmy
This is a pretty complicated question. But let's start with the value part of it. A coins value is largely dependent upon its condition or grade. And the higher the grade the more the coin is worth. There is also a large difference between Proof grades and MS grades. A Proof coin is a specially manufactured coin and they are graded differently than MS or business strike coins ( coins struck to be used in circulation ). All Proofs are graded as PF63 or PF64 - all business strikes are graded as MS63 or MS64. Now I could be more specific if I knew the year of quarter you are asking about. But Proof 63 is pretty low for any but the older issues. It sounds to me like this dealer was giving you a sales pitch. For while his information is accurate to some degree it is not completely accurate. Yes there are many coins that are graded as MS60 that are not truly uncirculated - they are known as sliders. In other words the amount of wear is so slight that many mistakenly grade them as uncirculated when they are not. But just about any coin that is graded as MS60 will be pretty beat up with bag marks, hairline scratches etc. An MS63 coin will have these marks as well - but a lot less of them. And an MS66 coin will only have a few. Now that's a pretty brief explanation, but it should give you the idea. Try reading and studying here at this site - Grading Coins Once you get through all that - you'll have a better understanding.
I think likeable also needs to realize that MS and PR are two different beasts here! A proof coin, regardless of grade, would be refered to as PR__ (numerical grade)....and mint coins from mint sets or business strikes would carry the MS designation such as MS63. GDJMSP, as always, you have provided a very good answer but I couldn't help but feel it might have been a little confusing to a new collector? Guess it would be easier if I had just simply stated a PROOF coin cannot be MS and a business strike, intended for mint sets or circulation cannot be PR. Hope that simplifies things a bit!
To further clarify, there are two classes of coins struck by the United States Mint - regular business strikes and proofs. Proofs differ in that they are minted specifically for the collector/investor market and are struck with specially prepared dies. Business strikes are intended for circulation and are graded on a numerical scale from 1 to 70, 1 being the worst possible condition and 70 being the best. On this scale (referred to as the Sheldon Scale) designations of 60-70 are for coins that are considered to be in a Mint state - lacking any signs of wear or use. This does not mean that they never entered circulation, it just means that they lack any signs of wear or use. I say this because you will often see a coin with a grade of MS (Mint State) 60 or better that has obvious signs that it went through a counting machine. This signs are technically wear, but given the overall state of preservation of the coin, it is still assigned a grade of MS60 or better. For each coin series (Lincoln Cent, Jefferson Nickel, etc.) there are established and generally accepted criteria for assigning numerical grades to a coin from that series. For Mint State examples, surface preservation, strike, lustre, and eye appeal are the basic factors which determine where between MS60 and MS70 the coin falls on the scale. Proof coins, since they were designed for the collectors market and packaged before leaving the mint, are normally found in grades of PF60 - PF70. Again, proof coins are graded on the Sheldon Scale from 1 to 70, but unless you are talking about an older proof coin, it is unusual to find one with signs of wear that grades less than PF60. For older proofs though, you will see coins grading PF55, PF53, etc. Hope this helps.
O.K. now lets really confuse things with another question. Is it possible for both MS and PR coins to also be BU? Or can neither coin be listed as BU, if they are in fact MS or PR?
Unc, BU, Choice BU and Gem BU are alternatives to the Sheldon Scale for describing mint state coins, so yes, an MS63 might simply be called BU. Strictly speaking that wouldn't apply to a proof coin, but a lot of folks would apply the same standard.
Old Dan, I don't use the term BU with proof coins even though, I suppose, there are some that might. BU which means brilliant uncirculated and seeing how proofs are not made for circulation, but some do manage to find their way out of their plastic prisons from time to time, they are STILL not meant to circulate. Again the term proof applies to the specific method of making (or striking) of the coins not to the individual coin itself so I guess I would have to say "to each his own"! My proofs are definitely NOT BU and will remain that way until I croak!!!
folks thank you very much for your response and education....much of the responses I read I had been leaning to, and the "slider", and "coin counter" indeed make sense....for bussiness strikes......and my resons for all this perhaps are quite quirky....the quarter in question is a 1953 incedently.......a few years back I happened to find a 1953 Franklin in a bargan bin at a show...the flip said "circulated proof"...the price was too good to pass(I dont think im allowed to reveal here)....later i found a 53 proof cent....spotted....again deeply discounted....shortly thereafter it became my goal to assemble my own proof set of spoiled, spotted, or "circulated"proofs....to many an odd thing to collect....but isint that what makes this such a wonderful hobby?...to me they're like survivors...and hey I enjoy the chalange!.....thanks again for all your help.....Jimmy
Welcome to the forum. You, my friend, have found the perfect answer to that peripatetic question "What should I collect" - something that you find enjoyable whether or not other people follow that particular path. .
