I buy Morgans. I look for New Orleans dates. I am aware that allegedly the Orleans mint was known for weak strikes. The unfortunate reality is dealers will mistake a weak strike for circulation wear. Whether intentional to try to get a coin cheap its a possibility. I do have one Morgan that is an MS-63 that I insist is a weak strike. If the coin has full detail, except for weak breast feathers, and if the coin has what the hobby calls a satiny/white surface across the entire coin, then the coin is Mint state. I was reading in one coin website where a coin does not have to have full strike to be considered mint. A weak strike can still be called mint. I dumped (sold) another Morgan which had weak breast feathers, but in that case, the breast feathers had some dark discoloration. Discoloration in the highest areas is a sure sign of circulation wear. ...Im slowly learning about mint states. MS-60: full of bag marks on both sides. MS-62: full of bag marks on one side. MS-63: Moderate bag marks on one or both sides, with large percentage of the flat surfaces having satiny luster. MS-64: bagmarks are faint and not trusive. Coin otherwise looks very clean, with very satiny surface. ...I had a Morgan with a black mark on the cheek. It was NOT toning. Could be a stain from an album or a coin-counter, one guy said. Such marks could still grade up to MS-63 but no higher. Dealer will pay MS-61 if its a nice coin, but with an album mark, a dealer wont pay higher. As one says, hes gabling it will come back form PCGS as MS-63. They often reject damaged coins. Even if it comes back MS-62. if he pays MS-62 money, he still has to pay the grading fee, and loses money on the coin. If you are BUYING: Bottomline, pay bottom dollar for coins with questionable condition. Dont let a dealer convince you his merchandise grades high, if its not slabbed, and you see stuff on the coin that drags it down. Bottom tier slabs of graders like NTC are a lot more trustworthy than some of the dealers with the unslabbed coins . I am happy with my slabs. Im buying more. Nice coins that meet the grade. They can always be broken out of their slabs. Though Ill keep mine in the slabs. Word from the local coin show in my area: Some of the errors are worth a lot more money than the red book price. Any of you agree?
I agree somewhat on the last statement, of how errors are worth a lot more money than the red book price... " some errors CAN be worth a lot more money than the red book price, they can also be cheaper " As always, supply Vs demand rules supreme, not a book.... So I think i'm agreeing with you, i'm not sure..... + My two centavos +
Weak strikes drive me crazy! I consider myself pretty good at grading but when it comes to weak strikes I just seem to forget everything I've learned. When going over some '44 D Lincolns (also notorious for weak strikes) I sent in several D/S OMM#1 and #2 that I graded at VF maybe a weak XF on a good day. They came back AU-50 from ANACS. Wow, I could have made a $125+ per coin mistake.
I bought, what I thought was a MS64 coin from a dealer who determined it was a MS65. So I ended up paying 65 dollars. I figured...he knew more than I did and I REALLY wanted and HAD to HAVE that coin. Years go buy and I wanted to sell that very same coin. I took it back to the same dealer who told me it was a MS64. Showed him HIS receipt when he sold it as a MS65 and then accused me of bringing in another coin. [Yeah, yeah...it was kept in ideal conditions and looked exactly like the day I bought it.] Now, this is not the case with all dealers as they are in business to generate cash and make a profit. But it is only natural for us to want to pay MS64 money for a MS65 coin and of course, sell the coin for MS65 money when the buyer will claim it is a MS64. Then there are those New Orlean Morgan strikes where their definition of quality control was no way as good as San Francisco's. One "S" mint Morgan that grades MS64 may grade MS66 if everything were the same (except the "O" mint mark). Take a Buffalo nickel. There are some MS grades for specific years where the horn looks very worn. You are scratching your head and thinking, "That can't be a MS grade if the horn is worn...but guess what?...it depends on the mint and year! This is pretty much normal anywhere you go and hence the reasons why slabbing got to be so popular. It wasn't the seller's opinion, nor the buyer's opinion...it was graded by a 3rd party agency who techincally shouldn't have any interest for the seller or buyer. It is almost like hiring a mediator to settle a dispute and yes, like any dispute...somebody is happy and somebody is not when the final say-so comes about. For me...I pretty much given up submitting coins for grading as my weakest area of grading is AU58 to MS63...the slider range. I bought coins that I thought were MS and they came back a high AU (and I wasn't too happy as I paid in MS dollars!!). Ahhhh...a learning experience. Why is it that they are always so expensive. It makes me feel like this guy: So now I resort to looking for deals in lower tiered slabs where I mentally deduct anywhere from 2 to 4 points in MS grades and 5 to 10 points in circulated grades. If I can see the coin and get a "deal", I'll buy it...that way...I am not that far off in grading that given coin, for that given year and for the given mint production year!
Midas explained it quite well in regard to the weak strikes of the O mint. They can be tricky. It's like anything else - it requires experience. And it sounds like your well on your way. But keep in mind that there is a bit more to grading than as you described it, but you certainly have the idea. As for trusting the grades of a dealer - not a chance unless I know him/her quite well. But that doesn't mean I would trust the grades of the lower tier grading companies either. Sure you can find some nice coins in those slabs if you know what you're looking at. They do get one right once in a while. But even a blind pig will find an acorn occasionally. As for prices in the Red Book - I pretty much ignore values in the Red Book. If you want accurate retail values look at realized prices from auctions & ebay etc. If you want wholesale values - what you can expect a dealer to pay you for your coins - get the Greysheet.
I collect bust halves, trying to grade a coin with a weak srike is really hard to say the least.With bust halves you will find weak strikes, shattered dies, cracked dies,filled dies and the edge lettering errors not to mention all that have been cleaned or damaged.I never dreamed there was so much to learn this will take a lifetime to learn but I will try my best.Thanks for the tips on weak strike o mint morgans I really learned some good things from this forum. Thank you all
When you start talking about cracked dies; filled dies: I dont know what that means. Grading coins ia not easy. I think Ive learned pretty good how to grade a Morgan dollar. Im fairly confident if theres discoloration, its circulation wear. In addition to the discoloration on on the worn area, the coin might have scratchy surfaces. If you dont have glassy satiny surfaces, and what you have is pale, scratchy surfaces, then definitely the coin is worn, or cleaned. I still say the low tier slabs are good deals. At the coin show, a dealer said "guess what: they all overgrade; PCGS included." If you're going to talk to me about Lincoln Pennies; Indian pennies: I dont know crap about those. I dont know what a cleaned penny looks like. Collectors look for RED cents? why is it the Morgans sell for good money with toning, but the collectors dont like Toned Pennies? Im sticking to Morgans.
Don't take my comments the wrong way - you are 100% correct that all of the top grading companies overgrade - they also all undergrade. I'm not trying to talk you out of your habits or preferences at all. I'm just saying that the top grading companies are right a whole lot more often than the lower tier companies. I've seen far too many coins graded by them as MS64, 65, 63 etc that in actuality do not deserve the grade of AU55. And I'm talking about Morgans. Bottom line - they all mistakes - no doubt about it. But some of them make those mistakes a whole lot more often than the others do.
Many Morgan collectors love naturally toned dollars. As for what is "natural"?, do a search here in CT on the words toning and tarnishing. It has been disccussed many times before. Just because it is naturally toned doesn't mean that the coin will lose value. Matter of fact, many collectors pay premiums for nature's art. But...beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have seen plenty of MS66 graded Morgans (all of the top grading services) with plenty of toned colors throughout. As for Lincolns...my first love...keeping copper RED is a challenge and a MS65RD Lincoln is worth much more than a MS65RB (Red/Bown) which is worth more than a MS65BN. Take a look at this "way-out-of-my-leaque" 1914-D MSRB coin: Eventually, if not stored properly, copper will oxidize and turn to brown which is the color you see in most Lincolns...which is common when is less expensive.
Weak strikes are a really tough issue, in my personal opinion, when it comes to grading Morgan Dollars. Not only are there variations in strike between the mints, but there are also variations in strike between the years - and even within a particular year. This makes grading a real challenge. My advice, when grading any Morgan dollar you should look at the surface preservation first - checking for bag marks, gouges, wear, etc., then you should look towards the quality of the strike in comparison to the known quality for that year and mint, then you should look at the lustre (again against the known characteristics for that particular year) and once done with these factors, judge the coin on overrall eye appeal. Using this type of approach you might for instance, find an incredibly well struck 1881-S Morgan Dollar with brilliant lustre and spectacular eye appeal an MS63 since these characteristics were common for the date. On the other hand, you might find a New Orleans minted coin with the same characteristics an MS64 based on the rarity of these characteristics for the date/mint. In order to really grade them properly, not only do you have to understand what goes into grading, but also a great deal of background on the coins themselves.
