Does anybody recognize this?

I have just recently started collecting coins and I went to my first coin auction last weekend. I bought this coin.


It was said to be a "silver coin from 1819" without any more detail. The seller spoke to me after the auction and told me he didn't know what it was. Using Google, I've been able to figure out that "PORT BRAS ET ALG REX" means "King of Portugal, Brazil and the Algarves". In 1819 King John VI was king of Portugal and the name "JOANEN" can be made out, but the curious (to me at least) thing is that it seems to be superimposed on the word "DEI" which doesn't belong there at all.



On the other side, you can see a similar situation.



Does anybody have any more information about this coin and what's with the superimposed letters? Also, does anybody here read Portugese so you can tell me what the lettering means?

 

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I think its supposed to be a John VI from Portugal 960 ries probably struck over a Spanish 8 reales...it was minted in Rio de Janeiro. Crown above value and date in wreath / Globe with shield of Portugal aver cross patent K.M. 326

 

Thank you for finding that for me. So, does this mean that I have a real "piece of eight" just like the pirates (or at least what used to be one)? Cool I notice that the coin in your picture also seems to have been struck over another coin. Was that common?

 

Can you provide larger pictures of the full obverse and reverse?

 

Actually, never mind on the photo, I think your coin was struck over an 8 reales from Mexico City, dated between 1812 and 1819. Below an example from 1818:

 

I still have the original scans. They're nearly 2000X2000 pixels, so I won't post them here. If you want to look at them, click here for the side with the crown (I'm not sure whether that counts as the obverse or reverse) and here for the side with the globe.

 

Most if not all of the 960 Reis coins from this period were struck over 8 Reales coins.

 

The original date on the OP coin is under the RT & BR of PORT*BRAS and it appears to be 1801 but the 1's don't appear to have the top serifs? They look like blunt 1's? Can someone post a pic of an authentic 1801 8 Real, Mexico Mint, for comparison? :thumb:

Sweet coin!

Ribbit

Ps: So others can maybe see what I see, here is where I believe the numbers are for the date:

Looking at the coin as it sits (relative to coin, not the letters) and assuming the date is 1801:

First 1 is underneath the R in BRAS and on the right side
The 8 is under the B in BRAS.
The 0 is to the left of the T in PORT and most of it is lower than the stop between PORT & BRAS.
The last 1 is between the R & T of PORT and closer to the T.

Pps: The zero looks smaller than the other numbers. Is that right?

 

Toad, there's no need to look at the 1801. That possibility has already been eliminated by the assayer's marks, which are J and J. Look at my example.

 

The I looking letters?

Is that the only year that assayer mark was used?

Ribbit

 

Yes, the I-looking letters are the style of the J used at the time, written along the legend after the 8R, which is also clear. The mint mark is before that, and is faintly visible.

The assayers J and J were in Mexico City starting 1811, so there are a number of dates possible.

 

Then what about 1821? And what did the 1's look like?

Ribbit

 

How would an 1821 be used on a coin struck in 1819?

 

Good point! However, considering how coins were commonly minted with dates that did not correspond to the actual date, what would have stopped them from using a old 1819 die in 1821, especially if it was towards the end of the year and the die broke? Is there a 1821 of these or were they just minted in 1819 & 1820?

Ribbit

 

The range of dates for J and J in Mexico City is 1812 (I thought it was 1811 but I checked and its not) to 1821.

 

I hate to be such a pest, but were the 1's the same for all years (with serifs or whatever they're called)? :bow:

Ribbit

Ps: Can you imagine me as a kid?

 

Yes, I can imagine you as a kid. I looked through photos of Mexico City 8 reales from all the relevant years and besides a slight variation in thickness on the overall digit, the 1's are identical to what appears in the 1818 I posted. Doug might have more depth on the matter, however, if he stops by here to comment.

I tried hard to see digits in the location they should be, but I cannot make anything out. The closest symbol I can see punched is the final A of GRATIA.

 

I can make out the entire former GRATIA but the date isn't so easy to see, which will be shortly after GRATIA. :kewl:

I'm still working on figuring out the date, if'n possible. :goofer:

Ribbit

 

What's interesting is I didn't talk much until I was 5 so I missed out on the Why Stage and have been trying to make up ever since.

Ribbit