CNG revealing all proxy bids

Agreed. I deleted it.

 

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Yes this, a thousand times this. These people swooping in to auctions and bidding up coins that “normal” people can afford will kill or seriously hamper the hobby. A major lacking of a moral compass by these individuals if anyone were to ask me. If you truly enjoy a hobby, how can you deny it to others?

 

This was my only point to my comments. The prices recently seen will price everyone but the wealthiest out of the market.

 

Let's not try to make Clio a saint. I don't care if it was actually Clio or the Chilean billionaire or Scrooge McDuck who bought 70% of the coins in CNG auction. If the Chilean didn't exist, Clio would have bought 70%, he just now got Clio'd himself.

Whoever does this, it is not a healthy bahavior nor a healthy collection. It is like a swarm of locusts or a black hole devouring everything. We have seen in the past 2 centuries some exquisite collections getting auctioned or donated to authorities. How many coins did these collections count? A thousand in most cases and up to ten thousand at most. Now looking at Clio et al. they have at least 100.000 coins. What is the idea behind? Can you actually ever enjoy all these coins? I bet after a couple of thousands you will even forget what you have...

On the contrary people like @AncientJoe are building healthy collections. A limited number of excellent examples. He has sold some of his coins that didn't fit anymore in his collection so they came in the market again. Did you ever see anything getting out the monster's belly? While bidder handles were displayed in CNG and ROMA, I never witnessed such an occasion.

I wouldn't consider @AncientJoe a rival. He targets coins worth of 10.000-100.000 each, so he plays in another category. Even if I could spend that amount per coin, I would probably move to collecting ancient pottery or statues. I like to admire his collection. He does not mess up with every single ordinary bidder in an auction. Now compare with the 2 others...They buy everything, they collect all categories, they don't care of condition, they buy VF or VF+, one of them will pay a lot for whatever provenanced scrap metal is available like Chile has any strict rules for cultural heritage.

I hope both of these persons disappear as they are a serious harm/threat to the hobby.

 

"rooms full of Covid breathing people"?

Someone's been drinking the Kool-aid.

 

I just hope those collectors do not go the Gulbenkian way and thus don't take those coins out of the market forever.

 

This is a good question. Most of the billionaires on the Chile (and other) list are getting on in age. Will they leave their collections to uninterested family who will sell them, start a museum that no one in the country will visit or melt them down to make a casket? We don't know.

Well, I was born just a few miles from Jim Jones. Today I live not far from the inventor of the ultimate in mask design:
https://www.wric.com/news/crime/mel...s-rob-sheetz-with-watermelons-on-their-heads/

 

So is the reason CNG started revealing proxy bids because this guy was buying everything, and since they don’t accept “buy” bids, it made things move faster? That is more understandable imo.

 

I don't think we will ever know.

What I would like to see for sure is that they make their bidding system better. The 2 step bidding is really bad. And if their lawyers or whoever told them that in this way they will protect themselves from people saying my cat pressed accidentally the bid button then they are in the same position with this system. I will explain why. I tried to bid live 5000$ , I pressed the button once. In the second step I had to confirm the bid, my bid turned to be 5500$ because in the meantime someone else already bid 5000. So if I did press the confirm without noticing this, I would have confirmed a 5500$ bid when I intended to bid only 5000$. Had I been successful I would then complain that I didn't intend to spend 5500$. I really don't understand this, and actually they must be the only ones using this 2 step bidding approach.

 

Well, been following this thread with interest, & it seems CNG is just one of those companies which operate a little outside the norm. For example, I recently applied to be able to bid on CNG, & received the following msg from Kate Rill:

Thank you for registering on our website.

Before I can approve your registration, I must ask for some numismatic references - dealers from which you have purchased over the last several years. Upon receipt of that information and your approval of our payment terms, I can approve your registration and you can start bidding.

Payment Terms: VISA and MasterCard or
Prepayment of orders by wire transfer or check drawn on a USA bank payable in US Dollars until credit is established.

Best Regards,

Kate Rill
Classical Numismatic Group, LLC

I politely (I think) responded that I have been a collector since the 1950's & while I have bought from dealers quite recently, I was not going to share that information & to kindly rescind my application.

I have not received a response back & I'm not expecting to. It doesn't appear that CNG intends to be a market for the average, middle of the road collector.

Does anyone have a reasonable reason/idea why they would need specific dealer information for several years? It seems too "off the wall".

Anyone have a similar experience "registering" at CNG or elsewhere?

 

They are just asking for references, not details of your transactions. It is standard to do so.

 

Nevertheless, I'll shop elsewhere.

 

The only time a book bid (or prebid as you might call it) was ever discussed was when the live bid exactly tied the high book bid. This tie must be announced, as is announced, by all auction houses. Tie bids always go to the book. The live bidder has to know his bid is not being accepted. If the book bidder was the winning bidder, their bid remained as anonymous as all other bidders. It was never announced that the current high bidder was the book unless it was a tie bid with a live bidder and the maximum book bid that had been received.

 

The only time a book bid (or prebid as you might call it) was ever discussed was when the live bid exactly tied the high book bid. This tie must be announced, as is announced, by all auction houses. Tie bids always go to the book. The live bidder has to know his bid is not being accepted. If the book bidder was the winning bidder, their bid remained as anonymous as all other bidders. It was never announced that the current high bidder was the book unless it was a tie bid with a live bidder and the maximum book bid that had been received.

 

The only time a book bid (or prebid as you might call it) was ever discussed was when the live bid exactly tied the high book bid. This tie must be announced, as is announced, by all auction houses. Tie bids always go to the book. The live bidder has to know his bid is not being accepted. If the book bidder was the winning bidder, their bid remained as anonymous as all other bidders. It was never announced that the current high bidder was the book unless it was a tie bid with a live bidder and the maximum book bid that had been received.

 

I really don't understand why they ask for references. Speaking as a new collector it feels very snooty and unwelcoming.

If you don't feel you can trust a newly registered customer, that's understandable. The simple answer is requiring a sizable deposit or verified PayPal account before allowing bids. That's what Heritage does, and it's much less intimidating to newcomers.

 

I think it must be fairly standard to ask for references; I remember that the German dealer (I admit I've forgotten the name) in one Numisbids auction for which I registered requested the names of dealers from whom I had purchased in the recent past as a condition for allowing me to place bids. I also had to provide such dealer names very recently in order to be allowed to join a new Facebook group. spun off from the Ancient & Medieval Coins group, called Ancient & Medieval Coins Sales. (I assume the intention was to move sales notices out of the main group.) It's not like I mind giving the names of dealers from whom I've made purchases; it's not like I have to disclose what I bought or how much I've spent. Although I agree that this kind of requirement makes life difficult for newer collectors.

 

I think they may be seeking more than financial secutity. They probably also want to dump quarrelsome problem customers. Most serious auction houses have this practice, and I’m sure there is a blacklist somewhere.

 

This is very standard and a reasonable practice: if someone bids on a coin and then doesn't pay, it hurts everyone - that coin will have to be resold and is no longer fresh to the market, the price realized is invalid, and the underbidder may have skipped other lots to target it. So, an extra level of validation above just an email address is very worthwhile and a standard practice in the industry.