Let's say you were at a show and you loved Trade dollars , you see two that you like , both almost exactly the same , one is slabbed and one isn't , which would you buy , remember it's slabbed by a top tpg and their is a no refund policy . rzage:smile
I buy coins already slabbed. I don't send them to be slabbed and the premium for already slabbed coins is small, or else I keep searching. My point is that a slab will tend to protect the non-expert heir from being ripped off on the grade/condition/authenticity, which is a major source of loss in the resale of coins. If a coin is in a PCGS slab marked MS65, there will still be haggling over price, but it is tougher for a dealer to claim the coin is harshly cleaned, damaged, XF condition, worthless, counterfeit, etc. No amount of paperwork left with a raw coin will do this as effectively in my opinion. It's just another form of insurance. It's okay for you to disagree and leave behind raw coins and letters. I'm not going that route.
Well if they're exactly the same, it's safe to say either they're both real or they're both fake. If they're both fake, then obviously I'm getting neither, and the TPG screwed up... so much for their "expert" opinion. If they're both real, then the raw one will most likely be cheaper... so I'm getting that one. Either way, I'm passing on the slabbed one.
In which case, they certaintly are NOT objective, as per a definition you provided: Would certaintly proclude the producer of director from being considered objective in any way. Now there's the problem with calling grading "objective." One can certaintly observe a coin and make factual statements as to aspects of its condition... but what grade should then result is purely a matter of subjective opinion. The fact that a large people on the internet use a word incorrectly does not prove anything. Only 23,000? Well guess what... Based on Google hits, apparently more people believe aliens had something to do with the JFK assasination than believe there's such thing as degrees of objectivity. Take that for what it's worth.
Thanks... of course you wanted to make that question hard, should ask me what I'd do if there was just one Trade dollar there... Presuming that I loved Trade dollars enough to want to acquire one, I'd like to think my first step would be to educate myself enough to tell a real one from a fake one. A book or two would be worth buying (or borrowing from the library, or do internet research). If it looked too questionable, I'd just pass... especially if the price looks to good to be true (in which case, it probably is.) If I wasn't confident I could tell a real one from a fake one, I wouldn't buy any in the first place. If I was... then I wouldn't need the TPGs help. Again, either way, I'm not getting a slabbed one.
Semantics, :headbang: I said almost exactly alike , meaning about same grade and look , even the experts have trouble with the newer batch of Trade dollar fakes:whistle: , they have to be looked at very carefully with high magnification , but I respect your perogative to buy what you want . rzage
Also I've bought most of the books out on counterfeits , there are at present no good books out on the modern Chinese fakes worth their salt , also Trade dollars are just the most counterfeited piece out there , they are now making all different type coins , unless you have a good 300 power microscope , and a lot of other equipment needed , in the near future there will be counterfeits that are so good only people with the proper tools will be able to tell for sure , good luck . And I don't mean that sarcasticly , I just see a day that a lot of people , knowledgeable peole like yourself could be fooled , and so far the top tpg have been fooled very , very little . rzage
Even the top tiers have made false positives before... PCGS had admitted they were once fooled by fake micro-O Morgan dollars, and quite a few of them, a few years back. I'll grant TPGS may make mistakes less often than the general public, but they're not infallible. However this isn't precisely the issue... that's an issue of authentication, not grading. Yes I can be fooled too... but if there's that much at stake and I can't tell the difference between a fake and a real one myself, I'm not touching one with a ten foot pole, especially if a dealer has no return policy if it ends up being fake (which is also bad customer service, if nothing else). A lot of dealers realizing that very few want to risk buying a fake Trade dollar (and don't want to risk their reputation by themsleves getting fooled with a fake) get most or all of their Trade dollars slabbed, for sake of authentication; the grading of the coin is incidental. As I've said before, this is the one exception I'm willing to make... if there's a huge risk of a coin being fake, I am willing to pay for expert authentication. It is reasonably provable on an objective factual basis whether a coin is real or not. It is so-called expert grading, which is just the subjective opinion of a handful of graders, that I'm never willing to pay for. And even when I am willing to make such an exception, I still would refuse to pay a single penny over what the coin would otherwise sell for raw. The expert authentication may affect my decision as to whether or not to buy it, but not how much I will pay.
Well said , I just wish I had your faith in my grading , hopefully in a couple of years I won't have to rely on the tpg for my grading , just for their authentication . rzage:hatch::hammer:
Above please find the statement of yours I still happen to disagree with. To this point I had done everything but draw you a diagram in an effort to try to explain my understanding of the accepted usage of the term. Challenge. I provided you with the fact that there are 23,000 Google hits on "degree of objectivity," 945,000 on “more objective,” and 84,900 on “less objective”...all going directly to your issue and in support of my understanding of the accepted usage of the term. Please provide me with just one Google hit going directly to your issue and in support of your understanding of the accepted usage of the term...and, well, I'll agree to disagree...how's that? Quite honestly, I'm just curious to see where you're getting that rigid, exclusive, non-relative usage of the term from... PS: Please also take note that the reason I didn't reply to your most recent reply on the issue is because the reply "copied" nonsensically. Just go to it and click the "Quote" button, and see what I mean. Your inline replies show up, but not the statements of mine you were referencing in the replies.
I think he's starting to loosen up...i.e., "get it." Tell you what really brought me around on the "blast white" dollars, it was when I started hearing from you guys that most of them had been dipped. Toning will settle in and find its place, just like any other fad/craze, once the market figures it saw/had enough of them.
Rusty there have always been and will always be people who like blast white and those who like toned. There really is only one thing that changes what is popular at any given point in time - and that's exposure. Back before the days of the internet exposure was limited to coin mags and that's about it. Not really a very effective method considering the subscription levels. Coin World is and long has been the largest by far with 100k subscribers. The next closest only has about 30k subscribers. And years ago those numbers were smaller. And none of the pics were in color. So back then people just decided on what they liked by seeing it in person. And not very many people ever got to see a wide variety of coins in person. But in the '90s along comes the internet and all of a sudden everybody can see things they'd never even heard of before. And exposure explodes like a wildfire. And this exposure creates a new phenomena - the Jones syndrome. Because all of a sudden thousands of collectors get to see what everybody else has, they get to see what everybody else thinks is cool and they get to see all of it in full balzing color. And I was even one of those people. Because not too many years ago, I didn't care for toned coins either. But then I got to know this guy that hides behind a green curtain and he started showing me all his toned coins. And I became a believer. Anybody who has visited coin forums for more than just a year or two has seen this happen. They've watched others that would normally never give a second look to a particular coin all of sudden become completely enamored with it. Thinking that they just have to have one so that they can post pics of THEIR coin and have everybody go ooooo and ahhhhhh and say how cool it is, how nice it is, how great it would be to own such a coin, and what a great find they made. This is completely normal, it is how people are. I like it, you like it, everybody likes it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. But it changes things. It changes what is popular. It causes prices to go up because with popularity comes increased demand and with increased demand comes increased prices. And rational thought goes out the window - for a time. But it comes raging back when something new comes along. And then the cycle starts all over again.
In that period between the magazines and the internet, there was also the major auction houses unbelievable catalogs. I still have the Norweb, Eliasberg, and many of the Bowers and Ruddy , Bowers and Merena, several Christie's from that period of the 1980s. I wish I had saved all, but space became needed, so I kept the better. Jim
In COINage, they had a lengthy pro/con section on slabbing. Both sides made very good points, but ultimately left me undecided on the issue. It does go a lot into why - mostly, saying it's the popular thing and allows for grades to shoot through the roof, whereas coins used to be graded meticulously and carefully, or sold on the basis of what they were rather then their condition value. The pro-guy reminded me of an old man who says "Back in my day, we don' don't need no fancy-shmancy Slabs!"
I have to say if it weren't for Lehigh and the enthusiasm he brings to his rainbow Morgans I'd still think of these as dime-store coins. He added a lot to my understanding, and some of his enthusiasm indeed rubbed off on me, too. I guess you're cautioning, though, from an "investor" standpoint, keep your head...know what's hype. From a collector standpoint, you can't "lose," so long as you buy/collect what turns you on...that's the "secret," there. Do your homework, pay the piper the going rate, and go home a happy customer. I'm aware I'm over-simplifying. But that's, for the most part, the upshot, at least for me. PS: You bring a long perspective, Doug. Cover a lot of ground. But then, that's how one discerns "patterns," if you will, isn't it? Think long, or be wrong. Hey, how'd I do?
Thanks Eddie, I do love my toners. I am aware that many people think that toned coins are a fad/craze. However, I think we should consider that there is probably going to be a middle ground on the issue. Doug pointed out earlier that very few collectors would pay more than 2X bid premium for rainbow toned coins before the craze. Now we see rainbow toned coins routinely selling for 10X-20X-30X+ bid price. There seems to be a consensus that someday, the craze will end and prices for these coins will crash. I have no doubt that the toned coins will not be as popular as they currently are, but I do not think that we will revert back to the days of the 2X bid premium either. Many collectors of rainbow toned coins become toning freaks. They do not consider it a fad and are hooked for life (myself included). These collectors will not drop the their toned coins because something new comes along. The casual toned coin collector might do just that, but if they are currently a casual collector of toned coins, they are probably not one of the collectors paying 10X+ bid. The casual collectors of toned coins will likely change their collecting habits which will reduce the overall demand for these coins and cause prices to drop. However, I believe that the monster toned coins are so limited in supply that the die hard toning freaks will still fight over them and pay huge premiums. I think that the moderately toned coins will be the ones that lose most of their value. We also need to consider that one of the main reasons for the toning craze was born on the internet and the availability of color photographs as Doug astutely pointed out. That will not change in the future and infact, technological advances will probably make it easier for people to photograph such coins. IMO, the biggest threat to the toned coin market is artificial toning. If the TPG's encapsulate too many AT coins, consumer confidence in slabbed toned coins will erode along with the customer base and prices. PCGS is absolutely killing me in this regard. Some of the ASE's slabbed by PCGS make me sick. They are pretty but do not belong in a PCGS slab. They are obviously AT which will lead collectors to believe that PCGS encapsulates AT coins. Once that perception is reached, the toned coin market will collapse. Speaking of paying moon money for rainbow toned coins, take a look at this E-Bay auction. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230127444345&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=013 Now we all know that I will pay handsomely for a rainbow toned coin and have on occasion paid 20X bid for a $50 coin, but this asking price is ridiculous. Numismedia Wholesale for an 1885-O Morgan is $53. This price of this coin is $7000. The seller is asking for over 130X wholesale price. People who are buying and selling toned coins at these ridiculous levels are going to get crushed IMO.
Very nice toned coins can be found for little premium if you know where and how to look, and exhibit some patience. IMHO, little "value" can be found in the very popular toners -- for example MPLs, Morgans, and many moderns where multiple times bid is found. Taking nothing away from some of the striking coins, I think they are probably at or near a peak in popularity (and thus demand and thus price). All IMHO.
