Should the word "Coin" in an ad mean it's really a coin?

All too often, we field questions from people just entering the hobby about coins being offered by private mints that closely resemble actual coins.

Recently, I was listening to my favorite sports station when they touted these coins whose drawings were recently discovered in the basement of the Smithsonian Institution that were now going to be minted and available to the public.

The problem is that even as what I consider to be a knowledgeable collector, I had to really sift through what they were saying in order to figure out exactly what it was they were offering. In this particiular case it was a coin that had never been minted by the US Government. It comes in a $100 dollar denomination called the Union. When one didn't listen to the commercial carefully, the logical conclusion was to think that these were coins that were found, not drawings. After a short glazing over of that fact, the sales pitch begins in earnest telling the listener where and when they could get these rare "coins". In actual fact, they could get a newly minted "non-legal tender version" of these pieces.

Some coins have been "minted" for places like The Northern Mariana Islands to be sold, but those who know these coins realize that the Northern Mariana Islands are a US protectorate and as such are part of the United States, and therefore have no money of their own, they use US coins. The private firm that sold these pieces were extremely unclear as to the monetary facts surrounding these coins.

As another case in point, I offer the 1mil gold plated replicas of 1929 Proof golf half eagles found recently in many US newspapers for sale. This pitch was even more confusing to the general public as when someone goes to research this coin, they will find a genuine coin that not only looks identical, but for the layman, can be nearly impossible to distinguish between, thereby leading to people who jump to conclusions due to bad info about rarity and value of a real US Mint item almost indistinguishable from this one.

The Hobby Protection Act was supposed to make items resembling US Coins readily distinguishable from the private stuff by using the word copy somewhere in the design, but IMHO, more needs to be done.

We as a community work diligently to spread good and useful information to the general public, but with the proliferation of these offers lately, it is nearly impossible to keep up with all of the misinformation. These copies hurt our industry, they sour opinions on coins in general, create mistrust among the general public, and dilute the amount of information available on coins in general, thereby making it even harder for the public to determine where they can now turn for the truth.

Do we need to ask our congressmen and women for a ban on the word "coin" in advertising except when it is a real monetary product? It might make it an easier information campaign. If the ad says coin, it must be a legal tender piece, not a copy or fantasy piece. You can then boil these ads down to looking for the word "coin" for the intent of fraud or not.

I think it would also extend to places like eBay where people routinely sell tokens that look like California Gold, and other private mint issues as real coins. We can't seem to expect eBay to police itself, (Lord knows we have seen what they do when asked to...virtually nothing) because it behooves them to allow the confusion to continue. As long as it is a point of confusion and not law, they will continue to benefit by not changing their rules, thus allowing most of these frauds to continue and claim no responsibility. They make money on the bad transactions, and cannot be pinned down as responsible for any of it even though it was their website that spread the bad information.

If the law is clear on the use of the word coin, then the fraud statute is easy to prove, or at minimum, is an easy rule of thumb to give to laymen so that they can be more sure when they are buying a genuine US Mint product vs. some fantasy piece that was recently discovered was in some sculptor's design book.

I think that these pieces may have a place in many collections, but they should be gathered by people with enough information to know exactly what they are. If people then want to invest in something, or just buy it because they like it, they should be able to, but it should be without being misled, and without making it seem like they are getting something that they clearly are not.

The sellers of these items need to be held responsible for keeping their messages clear and truthful and along with them, the advertising media that proliferate their messages need to also be responsible for their part.

Many of the proposed laws want the government to protect people from themselves, I think that this line of thought encourages people to be critical of what they read and then being able to determine if the item is a mint product or not through the use of one simple word. A Litmus test for coins vs. medals.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

true, Doug, but I am interested in narrowing the use of the word coin to only include those items that are legal tender issues. That would include all proofs, commems, and the buillion issued by various governments.

In essence, only governments can issue coins, and everything else used for barter or trade would fall under tokens or exonumia. I think it's a distinction that not only could the hobby live with, but would make it much clearer as to what is and what is not an actual coin going forward.

Making it clear to people outside of the collecting community is exactly what I have in mind when I propose this idea.

 

The "Union" is being made and sold by the New York Mint. Here is the ad: http://www.newyorkmint.net/home/008164.aspx

Nowhere in the ad do they refer to it as a coin, and only in the heading do they say it is a "coin design." I have seen the TV ad and think they use the same wording. It would seem they have actually sidestepped any controversy or legalities by carefully choosing the words they use.

We all know that this isn't a coin but at least it has some small amount of cachet as a proposed design by George Morgan. Who knows - if the times were right maybe it would actually have been produced by the mint.

As far as what you do get, when you look closely it just doesn't have the crispness of a mint offering. It seems flat and bulky.




What I find more than a little interesting is that the silver version comes in a bag with the words "Smithsonian Institution" and their logo on the front. I'm sure they had to pay for the use of those devices but it does tend to give unwarrented authenticity to the product.

I doubt that the US Mint could copyright the use of the words "United States of America", "E Pluribus Unum", "In God We Trust" or "Liberty", plus a date, but maybe the combination of two or more of those phrases on a "coin-like" device could or should be restricted.

---

On a different, but vaguely similar subject, a local car dealer had a three day promotion where, if the number on a flyer they sent out matched a number on one of a set of prizes at their dealership, you would win that prize. The prizes were an SUV, a quad-four off road thingey, $7000 in cash or Gold coins worth up to $5000. The fine print said the "Gold coins" were worth from $5 to $500. (?) I went to check out the scam and found that there was only one flyer each for the first three prizes but that there were hundreds of flyers for the "Gold coins". Of course, I won the "Gold coins" worth "up to $5000" or "$5 to $500", specifically I won 5 Presidential "Gold" dollars. When I protested that they weren't gold, but were in fact copper, manganese, nickel and zinc, I was told they look gold and there was no negotiation - take them or leave them. I also asked how to qualify for the "up to $5000" coin or the "... to $500" coin I was told that everyone gets 5 Presidential dollar coins. Period. Rather than take the 5 coins (chump change) I opted to contact the State's Attorney General's Office. I want my GOLD coin(s).

 

Great topic Noodle and the unsuspecting do get taken to the cleaners on this.

Sure, Doug has a good point but I would also have a problem if "TV pitchmen" started selling Civil War or Hard Times Tokens as genuine tokens as well if they were mere copies.

Having recently posted "Reagan Dimes" here on CT this issue really struck me Had a few members that really liked them so I sold two. Clearly fantasy pieces but you won't see me popping them up on ebay where I could probably get ridiculous bids for 3 grams of silver.

Unfortunately people that DO buy this stuff convinced that it's real find out the hard way when they try to sell them. I see it at work all too often.
My boss makes a ridiculously low offer IF he makes an offer at all. Fact is, we don't really want the stuff. Just gathers dust.

Unfortunately I'm afraid it's a problem we're most likely stuck with. Always a loophole somewhere.

 

It is meaningless as it stands... yes. What I am proposing is changing the law with regard to offering anything for sale as a coin. That it need be a legal tender issue of some legitimate government (yes, that includes proofs and commems) in order for the seller to use the word coin. If not, then it constitutes fraud, plain and simple.

If the law were changed, (note the question about involving our congresspeople), there would be meaning, and it would be simple for the average layman to make this determination.

The Union shown in the previous post makes my point as the author stated that they needed to carefully sidestep controversies by using certain wording. My proposal is that the government make the word "coin" have this legal commercial definition and therefore the advertising will be easier to decode.

 

What is a legitimate government? The United States for example, decided that the Confederacy was quite illegitimate and illegal. Would I be barred from selling my "confederate coins?" What about countries that the US does not recognize? If I want to sell a Palestinian coin, something that is legal tender within that territory, I can't call it a coin because, to the U.S. it is "illegitimate"? Plus, you're implying coin means money... Since when? I remember buying chocolate "coins" when I was a kid. I never heard of anyone believing they were real money, they were candy with a clever marketing idea. I've read recipies that tell me I should cut my cucumbers into "coins." Again, no implication of monetary value. The word "coin" is also used in architecture to mean the cornerstone of a building. Etc. My point is, just because, to you, the word "coin" means "a metallic disc issued as legal tender by a legitimate government" doesn't mean that's the definition of the word to the common man. As a coin collector, your argument makes sense. But coins weren't created FOR the coin collector, they were created for the common man.

But even so, what ever happened to that old phrase I was taught as a small child: Let the buyer beware?

Let's just use common sense. The silver version of that coin sells for $99... so they're selling me a $100 coin for $99... if you're dumb enough to fall for that, you're going to buy it whether they call it a medallion, a token, or Super Fake Fun Money. Sometimes, people just need common sense.

Their website clearly states, "New York Mint is not affiliated with the U.S. Government." If you switch to the specifications tab it even says "Denomination: 100 Dollars - Not Legal Tender" How much clearer do you want it to be?

Some people are just dumb. I've seen people posting bad feedback on ebay for buying a "coin" that was clearly marked as "REPRODUCTION" and stamped with "COPY" then complaining that it was a fake, all the while not at all wondering why they were getting a hundred year old, $20 gold coin for $10... No matter how much you want to protect people from themselves, at the end of the day, you have to use your own brain instead of relying on someone elses.

 

I agree, and great topic, but there will always be way to fool somone,

these are us leagal tender.


liberia



and this one, Republic of Palau.

 

ok... this is obviuosly devolving into an argument over what is vs. what "should be", and that was not my intention. I see most of the points made as being argumentative and protetctive of the very people that are ruining our hobby.

My point is that we can help our hobby and the consumers of our hobby by urging that for the purposes of advertising and promotion ONLY that the term coin have a specific meaning in commerce. This is not a declaration of the word coin to mean anything in normal conversation or parliance.

An individual may use ANY word any way that they please, but in the transacting of commerce, that the word coin have a definative and clear meaning. Many other words legally use this type of clarity simply to prevent fraud. I was merely suggesting that we try to protect our hobby from obviuos profiteers and scheisters by attaching a definative meaning to a word that by most of the public already carries that same definition, and thereby illiminate the chance that people could be scammed by others who use this assumption to their own ends.

It doesn't keep anyone from selling anything, or using the term in any way that they see fit, it only keeps people from being misled by this term within the channels of commerce.

Do I want to protect the criminally stupid???? NO! Do I want to eliminate an area that I see people being preyed upon every day that gives our hobby a bad name??? Yes!!!

 

just looking at the newyorkmint and saw they had ancients

Country:
SyriaDate:
54-68 ADMetal:
SilverPurity:
0.9Denomination:
Tetradrachm Weight:
14 g approxDiameter:
22 mmCondition:
CirculatedObverse:
NeroReverse:
Eagle


whats circulated mean? lol (or rather what do they mean)

 

by the way, the republic of liberia, palau, etc. can issue any coins that they see fit. as long as they are legal tender, they are coins. I am talking about replica US coins sold as coins in the US. I am not suggesting that we judge by anything other than legal tender status by a government of a country on this planet.

 

Think you said it all right there

 

well what if the coin you originaly posted was a liberian coin? would that make it any better?


edit: and Im not tryen to argue, so my appologies if it sounds so

 

I like the ad on TV where they roll out this cart with Morgans on it and say they are offering to the public, the last 3000 remaining Morgans and then they say they're Brilliant Uncirculated to Fine condition. The play on words makes it sould like BU or better but it isn't and I wish someone would audit them to see if they sold more than 3000, which would mean the ad is a outright lie, which I know it is.

That TV ad is a total scam yet it plays all the time. Why isn't our government doing anything about it? They don't care, just like Ebay doesn't care! Both just go through the actions of looking like they care but when it gets down to doing something about it, they are no where to be found!

Ribbit

 

Check the ads closely and you'll find they say that those 3000 are some of the last remaining Morgan dollars, or similar wording. And that is perfectly true. You have to pay CLOSE attention to the words used in some of these ads.

 

my hope is that although everyone needs to read and think critically, that nooone should be taken by being misled.

I thought that my solution was one that was simple, easy to understand, and difficult to misrepresent.

My aim was to protect our hobby, not the millions who want to get rich

 

Another current ad is one for "Gold coins just released by the US Mint". It shows a guy standing behind a table with a guard nearby. On the table is a pile of Double Eagles. In a cut away, it shows him holding double eagles in both hands and moving them from one hand to the other. Then it shows a table of double eagles with more double eagles dropping down onto the table. Then comes the kicker - if you hurry you can get the coins for "Only $97 each!". They don't say you get the double eagles shown and they don't say that you'll actually get 1/10 oz coins but that's what you'll get. They show double eagles but if you fall for it you'll get something the size of a dime.