PR70 or PR69 ?

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Well since Ruben has decided to block me he won't see this, but I will continue to respond to his posts in the hope that the other members of this forum have an understanding of his lunacy.

I wasn't aware that PCGS was involved in the minting process, which is an error by the mint. If you are trying to make the point that PCGS willl make an error by showing that the mint makes errors (ie mule coins) then it seems that you think the mint's quality control is better than that of PCGS. You make this claim without any statistical evidence of course which is your entire arguement against the 70 grade. That means it is OK for you not to have to show validation data, but PCGS & NGC must. The word HYPOCRITE comes to mind.

The second sentence doesn't even make sense.

The third sentence can easily be answered by you accepting my wager proposition. It seems that Ruben has also added rlm to the ignore list so we will need another member of the forum to go back and find my wager post and quote it so Ruben can see it.

 

everything is clear as a bell now. How would grade this one? 69 or 70?

 

Do you understand what the concept of a limit is in calculus? Almost all natural processes have limits, and these processes approach the limit, but never reach the limit. This is how nature works, and as does processes work, processes like the striking of coins, or the grading of coins.

When a scale is proposed, it is not necessary, nor is it practical to reach the upper limits of the scale, and the properties of the process, in this case the grading of coins, changes as you approach the upper limits.

Ruben

 

Not even close. 64 maybe.

 

perfect:

6 definitions found for perfect

From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 :

Perfect \Per"fect\ (p[~e]r"f[e^]kt), a. [OE. parfit, OF. parfit,
parfet, parfait, F. parfait, L. perfectus, p. p. of perficere
to carry to the end, to perform, finish, perfect; per (see
Per-) + facere to make, do. See Fact.]
1. Brought to consummation or completeness; completed; not
defective nor redundant; having all the properties or
qualities requisite to its nature and kind; without flaw,
fault, or blemish; without error; mature; whole; pure;
sound; right; correct.
[1913 Webster]

My strength is made perfect in weakness. --2 Cor.
xii. 9.
[1913 Webster]

Three glorious suns, each one a perfect sun. --Shak.
[1913 Webster]

I fear I am not in my perfect mind. --Shak.
[1913 Webster]

O most entire perfect sacrifice! --Keble.
[1913 Webster]

God made thee perfect, not immutable. --Milton.
[1913 Webster]

2. Well informed; certain; sure.
[1913 Webster]

I am perfect that the Pannonians are now in arms.
--Shak.
[1913 Webster]

3. (Bot.) Hermaphrodite; having both stamens and pistils; --
said of a flower.
[1913 Webster]

Perfect cadence (Mus.), a complete and satisfactory close
in the harmony, as upon the tonic preceded by the
dominant.

Perfect chord (Mus.), a concord or union of sounds which is
perfectly coalescent and agreeable to the ear, as the
unison, octave, fifth, and fourth; a perfect consonance; a
common chord in its original position of keynote, third,
fifth, and octave.

Perfect number (Arith.), a number equal to the sum of all
its divisors; as, 28, whose aliquot parts, or divisors,
are 14, 7, 4, 2, 1. See Abundant number, under
Abundant. --Brande & C.

Perfect tense (Gram.), a tense which expresses an act or
state completed; also called the perfective tense.
[1913 Webster]

Syn: Finished; consummate; complete; entire; faultless;
blameless; unblemished.
[1913 Webster]


From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 :

Perfect \Per"fect\ (p[~e]r"f[e^]kt), n.
The perfect tense, or a form in that tense.
[1913 Webster]


From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 :

Perfect \Per"fect\ (p[~e]r*f[e^]kt" or p[~e]r"f[e^]kt; 277), v.
t. [imp. & p. p. Perfected; p. pr. & vb. n. Perfecting.]
[L. perfectus, p. p. of perficere. See Perfect, a.]
To make perfect; to finish or complete, so as to leave
nothing wanting; to give to anything all that is requisite to
its nature and kind.
[1913 Webster]

God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfect in us. --1
John iv. 12.
[1913 Webster]

Inquire into the nature and properties of the things, .
. . and thereby perfect our ideas of their distinct
species. --Locke.
[1913 Webster]

Perfecting press (Print.), a press in which the printing on
both sides of the paper is completed in one passage
through the machine.
[1913 Webster]

Syn: To finish; accomplish; complete; consummate.
[1913 Webster] perfectibility


From WordNet (r) 2.0 :

perfect
adj 1: being complete of its kind and without defect or blemish; "a
perfect circle"; "a perfect reproduction"; "perfect
happiness"; "perfect manners"; "a perfect specimen";
"a perfect day" [ant: imperfect]
2: without qualification; used informally as (often pejorative)
intensifiers; "an arrant fool"; "a complete coward"; "a
consummate fool"; "a double-dyed villain"; "gross
negligence"; "a perfect idiot"; "pure folly"; "what a
sodding mess"; "stark staring mad"; "a thoroughgoing
villain"; "utter nonsense" [syn: arrant(a), complete(a),
consummate(a), double-dyed(a), everlasting(a), gross(a),
perfect(a), pure(a), sodding(a), stark(a), staring(a),
thoroughgoing(a), utter(a)]
3: precisely accurate or exact; "perfect timing"
n : a tense of verbs used in describing action that has been
completed (sometimes regarded as perfective aspect) [syn:
perfective, perfective tense, perfect tense]
v : make perfect or complete; "perfect your French in Paris!"
[syn: hone]


From Moby Thesaurus II by Grady Ward, 1.0 :

327 Moby Thesaurus words for "perfect":
KO, OK, absolute, accomplish, accomplished, accurate, achieve,
adept, admitting no exception, adroit, all right, all-embracing,
all-encompassing, all-out, all-pervading, ameliorate, aorist,
appropriate, apt, arrant, authentic, beautify, best, better,
beyond all praise, blameless, born, broad-based, button up,
call off, cancel, cap, carry out, carry through,
carry to completion, categorical, chaste, classical, clean,
clean up, clear, climax, close out, close up, complete,
comprehensive, conclude, conclusive, congenital, consummate,
correct, crass, crown, culminate, cultivate, dead right, decided,
decisive, deep-dyed, defectless, definite, definitive, deft,
delete, determinate, develop, dispose of, do to perfection,
downright, drop the curtain, durative, dyed-in-the-wool, effect,
egregious, elaborate, embellish, emend, end, end off, entire,
evolve, exact, exceed, excel, excellent, execute, exhaustive,
experienced, expert, explicit, express, expunge, exquisite,
extinguish, faultless, final, finalize, finish, finish off,
finish up, finished, fit, fitting, fixed, flagrant, flat, flat-out,
flawless, fold up, fulfilled, full, fully realized, future,
future perfect, get done, get it over, get over with, get through,
get through with, gifted, give the quietus, glaring, global,
go one better, gross, historical present, holy, ideal, illimitable,
immaculate, impeccable, imperfect, implicit, improve, improve on,
inappealable, incomparable, indefectible, indefective,
indisputable, infallible, inimitable, intact, integral, intensive,
intolerable, irreproachable, just, just right, kayo, kibosh, kill,
knock out, letter-perfect, lifelike, limitless, masterful,
masterly, matchless, mature, mere, meticulous, model, mop up,
needed, no strings, nonpareil, okay, omnibus, omnipresent, open,
out-and-out, outright, outweigh, overbalance, overbear, overcome,
overpass, overtop, past, past perfect, peerless, peremptory,
perfected, pervasive, plain, plenary, plumb, pluperfect,
point tense, polish, polish off, polished, positive, precious,
precise, predominate, preponderate, present, present perfect,
preterit, prevail, professional, proficient, profound,
progressive tense, pronounced, proper, pure, put paid to,
put right, radical, rank, realize, rectify, refine, regular,
reliable, required, requisite, right, righteous, ripen, round,
round out, scrag, season, set right, shattering, sheer, shocking,
shoot down, simple, sinless, skilled, sleek, slick, smooth, sound,
spotless, stainless, stark, stark-staring, straight, straight-out,
straight-up-and-down, sublime, suitable, superb, superlative,
supreme, surpass, surpassing, sweeping, taintless, talented, tense,
terminate, the veriest, thorough, thoroughgoing,
through-and-through, top, top off, top out, total, tower above,
tower over, transcend, true, trump, ubiquitous, unadulterated,
unalloyed, unbearable, unblemished, unbound, unbounded, unbroken,
uncircumscribed, unconditional, unconditioned, unconfined,
unconscionable, uncontaminated, undamaged, undeniable, undiluted,
undoubting, unequivocal, unerring, unexcelled, unfaultable,
unflawed, unhampered, unhesitating, unimpaired, uninjured,
universal, unlimited, unmatched, unmeasured, unmistakable,
unmitigated, unmixed, unqualified, unquestioning, unrelieved,
unreserved, unrestricted, unspoiled, unspotted, untainted,
unwaivable, utter, veritable, very, whole, wholesale, wide-open,
wind up, wipe out, without exception, without reserve,
without strings, wrap up, zap




From Bouvier's Law Dictionary, Revised 6th Ed (1856) :

PERFECT. Something complete.
2. This term is applied to obligations in order to distinguish those
which may be enforced by law, which are called perfect, from those which
cannot be so enforced, which are said to be imperfect. Vide Imperfect;
Obligations.

 

Yeah a 63-64 there is an ugly scratch on his head which is in a prime focal area.

 

Phones are soooo 20th century....

Ruben

 

I think he was joking.:rolling:

 

At least that Ike has no rust on it.

How about this one?

 

Ruben,
You are doing nothing by posting photos---that does 0% good and is totally useless. You can't grade accurately by photos/scabs, and trying to prove that they (PCGS I guess) are off on 69 and the 70 grade is not going to be decided by posting photo after photo of raw coins.

Speedy

 

There is no IKE in existence that has rust since they are not made of iron or steel. However, if you would like to see an IKE devoid of toning, I can oblige.



It is a top pop so NGC must agree with Ruben, there is no such thing as an MS70

 

Well, without a valid process for grading I can compare grades as well from photo's as from what the slabs say. In fact, you should be able to do better with the right photo's. It seems to work in airline and automobile production.

Ruben

 

Are you saying that we are now making MS70 cars and planes?

 

The problem here is that it would take more than a few example coins to show a 70 grade. You would need to examine the grading system for its ability to consistently prevent false positives. false negatives, as well as correct grades which they hold to be a 70 grade.

In other words, after a test run of a valid number of samples, run repeated through the grading process, probably for each coin that they grade, you would have to see how many 69 grades which were actually 70's were produced (false negitives). How many 70 grades were actually 69 (false positives), and how many 70's were actually caught and graded correctly.

This is a more complex analysis then it even looks because you don't have a standard measurement to go by (YET - but computer grading is probably coming). That means that through the use of statistics, these numbers have to estimated by the results of the graders to repeat outcomes. And then an analysis of deviations.

Ruben

 

That is basically what Lehigh is offering to do. All you have to do is open you eyes and accept his offer.

 

http://www.fda.gov/CDER/GUIDANCE/pv.htm

thats a link to the definition of validation as it related to drugs.

Ruben

 

Ruben,
Please step off your high horse, you are dangerous to the hobby.

 

Oh and then you have to keep in mind that grading standards have changed over time, and is likely to change again.

Ruben